how often do you guys call here? (lhe)

[brando 0]

This has been a noticeable pattern lately.PF - I Raise/player callsFlop - player checks/ I bet/ player callsTurn - check/checkRiver - bet/I ?Example1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is Button with [A ], [Q ]. 2 folds, BB calls.Flop: (4.50 SB) [J ], [2 ], [8 ] (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.Turn: (3.25 BB) [9 ] (2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.Check here ok since I picked up a gut shot?River: (3.25 BB) [8 ] (2 players)BB bets, Hero ?How often do you guys call here? Do I bet the turn?The first question is the main one I'm interested in.No read on villian other than he was loose.

[tylerc 0]

i would be betting the turn almost all the time here, you could easily be ahead and if not you have the gutshot and two overs. a lot of people call flops with nothing and drop on the turn. it gets harder if you get checkraised, but if not just check down the river. if you do get checkraised i think calling is ok here too because you'll be getting about 6to1 with as many as ten outs.tyler

[creepy20 0]

if your not betting the turn then there is no reason to call this riv. its such a small pot and you have nothing. any reads on the guy?

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I admit... I waited for a while because i wanted to see some other responses on this... because this is a known leak of mine too.But if everyone else is gonna be a big pussy about it, I think I'll take my best shot.The thing about overcards is it's ENTIRELY situational, and you have to play it like a draw. The flop bet is a straight up continuation bet, and needs to be made simply out of habit... but lets look at it.We have two overcards and runner runner straight possibilities, with no flush possible for us. Not the smoothest of draws, not a lot to improve. Still, the flop bet is standard.The turn doesn't improve us. Our outs may be dirty, and we have one card to come, and the pot is small. IN THIS PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCE, I would fold the turn.But it all depends. SSHE does a great job of explaining how to think when you're raising with overcards, and when to continue, and when not to.I firmly believe bet/raising this turn is a spew.

[brando 0]

The reason I didn't bet the turn is precisely b/c I have outs.It would suck to get c/r now that I picked up some more outs. I say I have around 8 outs (after discounting). There's a good chance I'm still ahead. Here's some possible scenarios for the river.-I hit my 10, bet obviously.-I hit a Q or an A, definately call a bet or bet.-check/check and I get a free showdown-I let him bluff at the pot and callThe last one would cost the same as a turn bet, then check the river. Which may or may not be better I'm leaning towards the river call better than the turn bet, but still unsure. On the turn he can c/r and put me in a tough spot possibly costing me 2 extra BB.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

The reason I didn't bet the turn is precisely b/c I have outs.

The more outs you have (in THIS situation, overcards and fold equity trying to work for you), the more you should be likely to raise and not call. With less outs, you should be more likely to fold.Don't forget the 10's aren't wholesomely clean either. We still only make the 2nd nut straight if we hit. I think 8 outs is a bit high to discount yourself, and I'd think you'd be lucky if it was around 5.This guy has led into the aggressor. I can't see how AQ is still ahead. Only a maniac semibluffs here, and more likely you're up against some kind of pair (and your overcard outs are possibly his kicker outs).Remember, it's 1 BB to win 3.25 big bets. Tiny pot, you can easily put him on a pair, and you probably don't have more than 5 outs. I am 100% positive that folding is the correct play on the turn (absent reads).This is why overcards are one of the hardest things to play well in small stakes hold'em.But I"m positive calling or raising is a mistake.

[brando 0]

The reason I didn't bet the turn is precisely b/c I have outs.

The more outs you have (in THIS situation, overcards and fold equity trying to work for you), the more you should be likely to raise and not call. With less outs, you should be more likely to fold.Don't forget the 10's aren't wholesomely clean either. We still only make the 2nd nut straight if we hit. I think 8 outs is a bit high to discount yourself, and I'd think you'd be lucky if it was around 5.This guy has led into the aggressor. I can't see how AQ is still ahead. Only a maniac semibluffs here, and more likely you're up against some kind of pair (and your overcard outs are possibly his kicker outs).Remember, it's 1 BB to win 3.25 big bets. Tiny pot, you can easily put him on a pair, and you probably don't have more than 5 outs. I am 100% positive that folding is the correct play on the turn (absent reads).This is why overcards are one of the hardest things to play well in small stakes hold'em.But I"m positive calling or raising is a mistake.

You're confusing me, there's no turn bet

[tylerc 0]

theres no turn bet, but if there was its a pretty easy fold. since there isnt i still think checking is too passive for a shorthanded game.tyler

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

sighLong week. Sorry. I need to open my eyes and read.I thought we picked up a gutshot on the turn and it was bet to us and we had to decide to continue.On the river... meh... A call doesn't have much value. We have to be right 1 time in 4 for it to be worth anything... but in that small a pot to see if AQ is good... it doesn't much matter. I personally would fold, because you don't have to make a heroic call on the river to defend this pot.Sorry for the confusion.

[TheIceman05 0]

Remember, it's 1 BB to win 3.25 big bets. Tiny pot, you can easily put him on a pair, and you probably don't have more than 5 outs. I am 100% positive that folding is the correct play on the turn (absent reads)..

1) You're consistently misunderstanding the situation. No turn bet. Turn check-behind from hero.2) Stop playing like that. I'd demolish you in any setting. Folding to any turn lead w/o a pair, w/ 2 overcards and a gutshot? Well, sheesh. I'd just bet every turn OOP against you.When you find yourself playing an easily exploitable style, you have to make a change, EVEN WHEN YOU'RE PLAYING SMALL AND MEDIUM STAKES. I'm no superstar, but I will often check-raise that turn with no pair, no draw, precisely because the hero has a hand like AQ, AK, AT, KQ, KTs a lot of the time, and if he's very willing to fold to an immediate check-raise, I'll smash his punk-ass all night. For the same reasons, you'll see me put in a 3rd bet with hero's hand on many occassions. I hear on of us retired this name?Ice

[screech 0]

Brando,I like the turn check for the reasons Ice mentioned above.All too often players who take the lead preflop will continue to bet the flop and turn UI. Even the donks catch on. That being said, I'm usually betting the turn in most HU situations when I have the lead. I just don't do it all the time.Thjis is a situation where I would probably consider checking behind the turn.For one, there is no flush draw on this flop. Either your opponent has a pair, a straight draw, or nothing and is just donking it up on the flop call.When the turn card hits, any straight draw has at least a pair, and possibly a straight. Getting c/red here would not be fun, because you have outs and would have to call. Unless you're opponent is the type of player who would call the flop with any two cards, and then release UI on the turn, you can safely check this turn and fold the river UI.

[brando 0]

5.25 BB pot isn't exactly "small". Also not trying to make a "heroic call". I believe a call here does have value, but I'm not completely sure.I think we underestimate (by quite a bit) what people peel with on the flop and how frequently they bluff the river after a check/check turn.EDIT - especially in sh games

[wrto4556 0]

noone really check/raise/bluffs the turn and if they do, well good for them. It costs a lot to pull a move like that.I agree with Brando on the fact that some of you may be unaware of how much people will peel on the flop. They take one off with any two and then fold the turn. If they call they probably have you beat, but they fold a lot.The way you played it, I would probably call the river

[brando 0]

noone really check/raise/bluffs the turn and if they do, well good for them. It costs a lot to pull a move like that.I agree with Brando on the fact that some of you may be unaware of how much people will peel on the flop. They take one off with any two and then fold the turn. If they call they probably have you beat, but they fold a lot.The way you played it, I would probably call the river

Do you think a turn bet is better?

[Actuary 3]

Between:Turnbet/callRiverFold UI or Bet some improved handsvs.Turncheck behindRiverFold UI or River CallIn this pot it's close enough to do them all over time.Most of the time I'd check behind and fold River UI...Second Most, I'd probably Bet/call turn. Then fold River UILast, once in a while I check behind and call river..especially with no reads.I don't want to always bet the turn with weak draws.But then I don't always want to fold the river either if I've checked the turn. BB only needs me to fold 1/6 times to make this bet profitable. I'd do it if I were him once in a while. Make the pot 8 BB, I call it most of the time after checking the turn.good to see Iceman.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I'm no superstar, but I will often check-raise that turn with no pair, no draw, precisely because the hero has a hand like AQ, AK, AT, KQ, KTs a lot of the time, and if he's very willing to fold to an immediate check-raise, I'll smash his punk-ass all night.

You'll lose a lot of money doing that at the typical 1/2 tables ive played at. People fall in love with their hands and will call you down with as little as ace high. I'd bet the turn against most calling station-esque players. A lot of worse non-drawing hands call the turn, and you can check behind UI on the river (clearly). If i check the turn, i almost always fold the river. If he leads on the turn, i probably fold.

[Actuary 3]

You'll lose a lot of money doing that at the typical 1/2 tables ive played at.  

Iceman is a donkey.

[TheIceman05 0]

I'm no superstar, but I will often check-raise that turn with no pair, no draw, precisely because the hero has a hand like AQ, AK, AT, KQ, KTs a lot of the time, and if he's very willing to fold to an immediate check-raise, I'll smash his punk-ass all night.

You'll lose a lot of money doing that at the typical 1/2 tables ive played at. People fall in love with their hands and will call you down with as little as ace high. I'd bet the turn against most calling station-esque players. A lot of worse non-drawing hands call the turn, and you can check behind UI on the river (clearly). If i check the turn, i almost always fold the river. If he leads on the turn, i probably fold.

Point the first- I think there's a significant difference between 1/2 and 1/2 sh. I don't know if you were referring to full ring or shorthanded gamesPoint the second- I don't like your "if I check the turn I almost always fold the river" mindset. Sometimes you'll find yourself in a situation where the hands with which you will bet on the turn are slight dogs to hands your opponent will call (or, godforbid, raise). Basically, if you bet and are called, you figure to be behind. In situations like this, you have to let it go check/check; bet/call. You gotta be able to realize when you best bet to win money is to induce a bluff. Point the third- If someone's calling me down with A-high regularly, I can guarantee you that he won't be a problem if "he's in love with his hand." Point the fourth- Why are you checking behind against "a lot of worse non-drawing hands [that] call the turn"? I'd suggested tossing in a few more value bets on the river. These are the hands you do NOT want to check behind, right?Someone tell me what my asshole friend said about me/usIce

[psujohn 0]

I almost always bet the turn. If I don't bet the turn I always fold the river UI. It may be a leak. I don't see any need for fancy play nor do I see opp often pulling fancy plays. I see very little reason to ever vary my play because the few people who pay attention at low limits are only ever in a few dozen hands with me at best.My feeling though is that once I take the lead I keep up the aggression until someone shows strength back. Many times this gets opponents to fold a hand that was ahead or a better draw. Often it means I pay off a super passive player who just calls down with a flopped two pair on his lovely T6o starting hand.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Point the first- I think there's a significant difference between 1/2 and 1/2 sh. I don't know if you were referring to full ring or shorthanded games

At short handed tables, people are more inclined to call down with ace high, not less.

Point the second- I don't like your "if I check the turn I almost always fold the river" mindset. Sometimes you'll find yourself in a situation where the hands with which you will bet on the turn are slight dogs to hands your opponent will call (or, godforbid, raise). Basically, if you bet and are called, you figure to be behind. In situations like this, you have to let it go check/check; bet/call. You gotta be able to realize when you best bet to win money is to induce a bluff.

"Almost always", with the exception being if he's a chronic bluffer. Even someone who DOES bluff often will very often have a pair of some sort. The pot is so small that you need to know he's prone to bluff in order to justify a call.

Point the third- If someone's calling me down with A-high regularly, I can guarantee you that he won't be a problem if "he's in love with his hand."

He wont be a problem most of the time, but when you're check/raising most turns with less than ace high (which is what i was directly commenting about), you're losing a lot of money.Him losing money elsewhere isnt a justification for you spewing.Maybe you're playing against different opponents. I almost never see people folding to my turn check/raises at these limits, so i do it exclusively when i have strong hands. Sure enough, they call me down the whole way with ridiculously weak hands.

Point the fourth- Why are you checking behind against "a lot of worse non-drawing hands [that] call the turn"? I'd suggested tossing in a few more value bets on the river. These are the hands you do NOT want to check behind, right?

Because most non-drawing hands (or hands that are drawing to pairs)that you have beat who call the turn dont call the river unimproved. There are now very few combinations of worse hands that call the river (who would call the turn). Plus, if you don't improve, they're even more likely now to have you beat than they were before. It's both more likely that the villain has you beat when you fail to improve, and fewer worse hands call you. If you know the guy is a complete station, you could maybe justify value betting a strong ace high. You need to know that he's prepared to call with Q high to do that though.

[brando 0]

Here's the scenarios1. bet turn, call raise, fold river UIpros - fold equity, possible free showdown, if villian is drawing he has to paycons - can get check/raised, it will always cost at least 1BB2. check turn, check/fold river UIpros - possible free showdown, costs no BBcons - we give up the pot, table image (maybe?), villians may be more likely to bluff us3. check turn, call or bet river. (bet if we improve)pros - induces bluffs on the river, costs at the most 1BB (providing when we improve we don't get raised on the river), costs as much as a turn bet but we get a showdowncons - table image (maybe?), allow opponent to draw to a pair or better for free.I think I like 3 the best

[Bubba83 0]

Your opponent is folding enough on the turn to bet again.I like 2. You're not earning the extra money if he is drawing and misses with 3. You don't have fold equity with 3.

[brando 0]

Your opponent is folding enough on the turn to bet again.

How do you know this? Assuming it were true, we picked up a nice amount of outs and I don't want to have to (possibly) put in 2 bets to see the river.

[brando 0]

On #3 it can also go check/check. Forgot to put that in there

[Bubba83 0]

I know that from experience. The chances your opponent hit top pair or better on the flop are quite unlikely. If he has middle pair here he is likely going to call and fold the turn if you bet, he is essentially trying to see how much you like your hand on the turn. He hopes you check behind him, signaling to him he has the best hand. If you're confident enough to bet the turn here, he will take notice to that and probably not want to call a possible 2 more BB to find out if his middle pair is good. Too many players fear a check raise here, it's not a common occurence unless the guy is a complete maniac and could do it with nothing.