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Stop-n-go And Go-n-go


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#1 jmbreslin

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 09:57 AM

Lately I've been focused on trying to get a bit more creative to take my NLHE game to the next level. But for some reason I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the appropriate and inappropriate use of the stop-n-go and go-n-go moves. So I'd like to start a strategy discussion on the topic.My confusion really centers around trying to grasp the ideal conditions for these moves, and when they may be a better choice than just pushing PF when you're shortstacked. Here's what I have so far:1) You're shortstacked but not yet in the M below 10 zone2) You'll be OOP postflop3) Your call or raise must leave you with enough fold equity against your opponent postflop4) Do your cards matter at all?5) In the case of a stop-n-go, you should be confident that villain is raising with a reasonably wide rangeThoughts? And how do you determine whether the time is right for one of these moves as opposed to just pushing PF?Thanks.
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#2 Sheiky

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:00 AM

My answer:At lower levels, very rarely.

#3 copernicus

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:07 AM

View Postjmbreslin, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 1:57 PM, said:

Lately I've been focused on trying to get a bit more creative to take my NLHE game to the next level. But for some reason I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the appropriate and inappropriate use of the stop-n-go and go-n-go moves. So I'd like to start a strategy discussion on the topic.My confusion really centers around trying to grasp the ideal conditions for these moves, and when they may be a better choice than just pushing PF when you're shortstacked. Here's what I have so far:1) You're shortstacked but not yet in the M below 10 zone2) You'll be OOP postflop3) Your call or raise must leave you with enough fold equity against your opponent postflop4) Do your cards matter at all?5) In the case of a stop-n-go, you should be confident that villain is raising with a reasonably wide rangeThoughts? And how do you determine whether the time is right for one of these moves as opposed to just pushing PF?Thanks.
1-3 good4 Yes, your cards matter. You are in the 8-12 bb or so range for SnG and 13-15 bb or so range for GnG, so you arent desperate and they should be reserved for 66-JJ, and maybe AK. (QQ-AA you obviously play for more value).5 Not necessarily. Eg the ideal spot for a Stop and Go is vs AK. Both moves are intended to increase fold equity over what you think you have PF. You have very litte FE if any against AK preflop, but lots of it the 70% of the time AK misses the flop. Thats what makes PP vs AK the prime SnG spot. If you think someone is on a wide range of hands then you have a lot of FE pre-flop and may actually lose FE by waiting till the flop.
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#4 jmbreslin

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 11:03 AM

Thanks, cop, that is very helpful. Sheiky, not so much.What I meant by a wider range was simply wider than premium PPs. You have to be confident that the player will include hands like AK, AQ, AJ in his raising range.The point about increasing FE over what you have PF is very helpful. I guess the drawback of making the move with AK is that it makes it less likely that villain raised w/ AK or AQ. So the focus should be on making the move with pocket pairs that you don't want to throw away but you also don't want to push because of your stack size and the fact that a push will likely put you in a coinflip situation (at best).Something else that just popped into my mind. Not only can the stop-n-go help avoid coinflip situations against hands like AK but you may also be able to fold decent pairs on the flop. For example, say villain raises 99 and I'm holding 66. If I push back, he'll likely call and I'll be in deep trouble. But if I stop-n-go on a flop with overcards, there's a better chance he'll fold his 99. Of course the risk in pulling the move on a flop with overcards to 99 is that the flop may connect with his overcard hand. As a general rule, will you call off a stop-n-go if an A or K falls on the flop? Maybe just an A?
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#5 copernicus

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 11:45 AM

View Postjmbreslin, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 3:03 PM, said:

Thanks, cop, that is very helpful. Sheiky, not so much.What I meant by a wider range was simply wider than premium PPs. You have to be confident that the player will include hands like AK, AQ, AJ in his raising range.The point about increasing FE over what you have PF is very helpful. I guess the drawback of making the move with AK is that it makes it less likely that villain raised w/ AK or AQ. So the focus should be on making the move with pocket pairs that you don't want to throw away but you also don't want to push because of your stack size and the fact that a push will likely put you in a coinflip situation (at best).Something else that just popped into my mind. Not only can the stop-n-go help avoid coinflip situations against hands like AK but you may also be able to fold decent pairs on the flop. For example, say villain raises 99 and I'm holding 66. If I push back, he'll likely call and I'll be in deep trouble. But if I stop-n-go on a flop with overcards, there's a better chance he'll fold his 99. Of course the risk in pulling the move on a flop with overcards to 99 is that the flop may connect with his overcard hand. As a general rule, will you call off a stop-n-go if an A or K falls on the flop? Maybe just an A?
as Fossilman pointed out in a 2+2 thread on SnGs, no, you dont abandon stop and gos with any flop, even AK, and you hit on the reason why...you can get overpairs to your pair to fold with that kind of flop.
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#6 Poker Addict

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 12:19 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 11:07 AM, said:

1-3 good4 Yes, your cards matter. You are in the 8-12 bb or so range for SnG and 13-15 bb or so range for GnG, so you arent desperate and they should be reserved for 66-JJ, and maybe AK. (QQ-AA you obviously play for more value).5 Not necessarily. Eg the ideal spot for a Stop and Go is vs AK. Both moves are intended to increase fold equity over what you think you have PF. You have very litte FE if any against AK preflop, but lots of it the 70% of the time AK misses the flop. Thats what makes PP vs AK the prime SnG spot. If you think someone is on a wide range of hands then you have a lot of FE pre-flop and may actually lose FE by waiting till the flop.
This is a very good answer. It's something that I need to incorporate more into my game. Specifically against the AK, AQ hands. Because a lot of time they are correct to call preflop but when the flop comes with low cards I think you can get them to fold a lot of the time and avoid the problems of racing on all streets.And yes, this would be useful in lower limits as well.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


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#7 jmbreslin

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 12:48 PM

How about this version of the go-n-go (from Bond's blog):"22-30 BB's. In the low 30 BB's a go and go is very often the best option when thinking of how to play a big unpaired hand pre OOP. Say you have 32 BB's and a villain in LP makes it 3X. If you have AQ you should be going to like 9-12X and shoving most flops, although if you really hit it hard and think villain will bet you should check shove instead."This seems like an extremely aggressive move, reraising and then open-pushing the flop with a stack size in the low 30BB's. I don't know if I'd have the guts to pull the trigger on this one with a stack in that relatively healthy range. But I would imagine he's probably referring to deepstack tournies, not shortstack SnGs. Still...
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#8 copernicus

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 01:09 PM

View Postjmbreslin, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 4:48 PM, said:

How about this version of the go-n-go (from Bond's blog):"22-30 BB's. In the low 30 BB's a go and go is very often the best option when thinking of how to play a big unpaired hand pre OOP. Say you have 32 BB's and a villain in LP makes it 3X. If you have AQ you should be going to like 9-12X and shoving most flops, although if you really hit it hard and think villain will bet you should check shove instead."This seems like an extremely aggressive move, reraising and then open-pushing the flop with a stack size in the low 30BB's. I don't know if I'd have the guts to pull the trigger on this one with a stack in that relatively healthy range. But I would imagine he's probably referring to deepstack tournies, not shortstack SnGs. Still...
It seemed pretty deep to me too. If you get called at say 10x, there is 20 in the pot and youve got 22 behind. Now any draw has the odds to call as well as any hand that hit, many PPs still call your push on paired boards, and of course overpairs to the board. I dont see where you pick up that much fold equity that pushing a missed flop is +EV. You really only love being against Ax that didnt pair when you make that move and how many of those call the PF raise?
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#9 Poker Addict

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 01:26 PM

Yeah, I don't know about that one. Maybe if you were at the top rainge of 30xBB. And raised to the low range of 9xBB - or 3x raisers bet. You would still have 21xBB behind. Okay, in his scenario you have 32x but that would still leave you with 20 to 22x behindAnd how do you check/shove? If he bets into that pot on the flop, it seems it would most certainly put you all in or close. Definitely with no fold equity. And if he's doing that AJ, AT, it's just a ballsy move on his part. If he called you pre and it wasn't a steal, then doesn't he have 99, TT, JJ or AK here? If he has that will he fold to the shove after the flop? Maybe he might. What else is in his range to raise then call preflop? Could be a wider range I guess. I have seen that. But not from a decent player that I can remember.I don't like that advice. If I hit that flop then I could shove. Say if a Q or A comes.So if we raise instead to 10x and he calls. If the flop is dry are we giving up on the hand? Or because he called are we thinking that he has specifically AK and will lay it down to the shove?I'm more confuddled now. My brain hurts.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


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#10 copernicus

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:04 PM

View PostPoker Addict, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 5:26 PM, said:

If the flop is dry are we giving up on the hand? Or because he called are we thinking that he has specifically AK and will lay it down to the shove?I'm more confuddled now. My brain hurts.
Any time someone is discussing an x and Go, you are never giving up on the hand.
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#11 Poker Addict

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:05 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 3:04 PM, said:

Any time someone is discussing an x and Go, you are never giving up on the hand.
Yeah, I know. I was just wondering by talking it out how that could be them move there.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


GG Interwebz Pokah. I will miss you.

#12 copernicus

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:42 PM

View PostPoker Addict, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 6:05 PM, said:

Yeah, I know. I was just wondering by talking it out how that could be them move there.
any responses to his blog about it? makes no sense to me either
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#13 Poker Addict

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:52 PM

What's the link? I googled it but I must be really slow on the interwebz today.I'll email him.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


GG Interwebz Pokah. I will miss you.

#14 Sheiky

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 04:07 PM

View Postjmbreslin, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 9:48 PM, said:

How about this version of the go-n-go (from Bond's blog):"22-30 BB's. In the low 30 BB's a go and go is very often the best option when thinking of how to play a big unpaired hand pre OOP. Say you have 32 BB's and a villain in LP makes it 3X. If you have AQ you should be going to like 9-12X and shoving most flops, although if you really hit it hard and think villain will bet you should check shove instead."This seems like an extremely aggressive move, reraising and then open-pushing the flop with a stack size in the low 30BB's. I don't know if I'd have the guts to pull the trigger on this one with a stack in that relatively healthy range. But I would imagine he's probably referring to deepstack tournies, not shortstack SnGs. Still...
I'll try and give some usefull input for once:This is pretty simmilar to a hand i saw played in a high level tournament between BKiCe and Strassa, the stacks were as mentioned i think.BK raises from the hi-jack, Strassa calls, flop is 667, Strassa checks, BK-bets, Strassa thinks for a bit and shoves, BK snap calls.Bk had A5 and Strassa had A2s.Ok that's a bit random, but it's kind of on topic right?

#15 jmbreslin

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 04:46 PM

This is the only comment on point but he didn't reply."One question about the 'go and go' move. Are you 3-betting with absolutely no intention of folding to a 4bet? And therefore you should take this into account in your 3-betting 'go and go' range? Take the example you gave in 22-30bb section, you 3-bet a LP raiser with AQ, with the intention of jamming any flop (aside from a checkshove). I'm assuming you can't fold to a 4bet pre?Would you 3-bet AJ in the same situation?"
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#16 jmbreslin

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 04:48 PM

View PostSheiky, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 8:07 PM, said:

I'll try and give some usefull input for once:This is pretty simmilar to a hand i saw played in a high level tournament between BKiCe and Strassa, the stacks were as mentioned i think.BK raises from the hi-jack, Strassa calls, flop is 667, Strassa checks, BK-bets, Strassa thinks for a bit and shoves, BK snap calls.Bk had A5 and Strassa had A2s.Ok that's a bit random, but it's kind of on topic right?
Except that if it were the move bond was describing in his blog, Strassa should have open-pushed; bond advocates saving the check-raise push for when you hit the flop hard.
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Posted 03 April 2008 - 07:58 PM

yeah, a little different cuz of the check/check then shove. What was the turn?but if it was a stop and go, he would have shoved on the flop. And planned on doing it. That hand you described looked like a complete bluff. And an interesting call.
FORMERLY: chek - raise (ps)
FORMERLY: CrazyZeke (ftp)

sheets: sick hold
BKiCe (observer): gl chek - raise

hishga [observer]: shulda gone with the chek approach
hishga [observer]: fold everything


GG Interwebz Pokah. I will miss you.

#18 throwemaway

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:50 PM

View Postjmbreslin, on Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

How about this version of the go-n-go (from Bond's blog):"22-30 BB's. In the low 30 BB's a go and go is very often the best option when thinking of how to play a big unpaired hand pre OOP. Say you have 32 BB's and a villain in LP makes it 3X. If you have AQ you should be going to like 9-12X and shoving most flops, although if you really hit it hard and think villain will bet you should check shove instead."This seems like an extremely aggressive move, reraising and then open-pushing the flop with a stack size in the low 30BB's. I don't know if I'd have the guts to pull the trigger on this one with a stack in that relatively healthy range. But I would imagine he's probably referring to deepstack tournies, not shortstack SnGs. Still...
Ok maybe I can help clarify this..First of all, in Bond's posts, he defines these stacks in terms of "true BBs", which is 2/3rds of the current pot size before someone opens it..So its more than just 1 BB..I'm pretty sure thats how he defined it...Now onto the play..When you 3 bet 1/3 of your stack, you are not not not folding in the hand ever..So you are 3 betting with the intention of calling a 4 bet shove..I think for the most part, the decision is made entirely preflop..Most opponents aren't going to flat you preflop because they should probably know you are committed to the pot and not folding in the hand..However, some people are retards and will flat you with speculative hands, in which case open shoving for about a PSB is the play, UNLESS YOU FLOP BIG...if you flop big and you think your opponent will bet ( this is highly read dependant IMO) then checking with the intention of C/RAI is the play and if he checks through, then its time to jam the turnI think the reason why this play is the best is because playing a hand like AQ to a late position raise OOP is going to be extremely difficult..Flatting sucks because we are going to be faced w/ a c.bet and we miss the majority of flops when we might well be ahead of his range there then still..Also shoving over his 3x bb raise for 30 BBs is retarded cuz its such an overbet that we only get called when crushed..Therefore taking the Go and Go option is the best..Maybe that helps some, who knows
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#19 jmbreslin

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 11:35 AM

Actually, that does help. First, it narrows the range of appropriate hands for the move (hands you wouldn't fold to a reraise). Second, it helps me understand why the go-n-go is better than both the PF push and a plain old stop-n-go: because of the awkward stack size. A stop-n-go wouldn't make sense with 30+BB because your push would be a huge overbet on the flop. By reraising you design the size of the pot and the size of your stack so that an open-push makes more sense.That said, I would imagine this move doesn't materialize very often because in most situations villain would either fold to your reraise (if he's stealing with a wide range) or just reraise and put you all in.
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#20 throwemaway

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 10:12 PM

View Postjmbreslin, on Friday, April 4th, 2008, 11:35 AM, said:

Actually, that does help. First, it narrows the range of appropriate hands for the move (hands you wouldn't fold to a reraise). Second, it helps me understand why the go-n-go is better than both the PF push and a plain old stop-n-go: because of the awkward stack size. A stop-n-go wouldn't make sense with 30+BB because your push would be a huge overbet on the flop. By reraising you design the size of the pot and the size of your stack so that an open-push makes more sense.That said, I would imagine this move doesn't materialize very often because in most situations villain would either fold to your reraise (if he's stealing with a wide range) or just reraise and put you all in.
typically yes
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