playing the nut low on the turn?

[ahosang 0]

The game is pot-limit Omaha8, and it's a very loose game with some passive, some aggressive(let's say average player is poor)The board looks like this at the turn:4 5 6 10 There's been a medium bet from '1st to act' and calls all round to you on the button. You hold:A 2 3 7 It's $0.50/$1 PL. The pot stands at $18There are 3 others before you in the hand still. What is your general tactic here? Do you just call and hopefully skim 1/2 to 1/4 of a pot(assuming your straight will not be good enough for high? Or do you throw out a pot size raise hoping to knock out a high holding and three-quarter the other lows, and maybe you will scare off the other lows(who might fear being quartered) or even scoop low if a counterfeit arrives on the river? Or do you want a small raise? I don't want to have only nut lows and nut high call me. Remember when you're being quartered you don't want to raise the investment. One more detail - assume you cover everyone and the turn raise could put them all-in apart from the lead bettor.It's one of those dilemmas which is so confusing because of the loose opposition(meaning you have no read on whether each player is going high, low or what), but what would you do as a long-term strategy here - that is if you had to play this scenario 100 times, what do you think would be the best choice to repeat, given the opposition are fairly loose and poor omaha8 players. I think I know what the best course is against this oppo, but I'm not sure, and I'd like to hear some opinions.

[Blink20 0]

In that situation you have the nut low, which is completely insured because any low can come on the river and you'll still have the nut low, plus you have the second nut high, only the 7 8 straight can beat you. I believe you said like four people have called the bet on the turn ahead of you, so you can be fairly certain you're not only against the nut highs and nut lows. I think a raise is definitly called for here on the turn. One of you opponents may be chasing with a set of 10's, one may have a flush draw, another that may have you quartered might just have A 2 and can get counterfeited on the river, so to get an extra bet out of him, its better before he realizes his low got counterfeited.Sure, someone may already have the 7 8 for high, and the other two just might have the same nut low as you, so you may get quartered. But I think in this scenario, it is much more likely that they are chasing other hands, and given that your hand is extremely strong, your low is insured, and you have the second nut high, I would think a raise is the best option.I have just started playing Omaha high/low as well, so I may be completely wrong, but I have fared well against weak opponents, building up my bankroll playing multiple 1/2cent pot limit, so now i'm trying to build up at the low 10/25cent pot limit table, and I would like to think I'm right in this case with raising on the turn. Any other comments would be great, because I really need to improve my game as well.

[Ed 0]

This is a hand I played last night in .02/.04 O8 on Stars that sort of illustrates it. Except that the person I got quartered with, we both had a 4-5, to take the A-2-3 on board. As it turned out, all the betting, calling and such here led me to drag 38 cents, compared to the 36 cents I put in. It got to a point where I wasn't really sure what to do with the hand, because with the 3 diamonds on board, and a paired board, it was safe to think that the 5-high straight wasn't good for the high - and all the re-raising by ooogah made it clear I wasn't going to get the whole low. I'm not really sure in looking it at how I could have played it any different to change the outcome, but if someone with more O8 experience than me (which would be about everyone) has any thoughts, feel free to share them. *********** # 88 **************PokerStars Game #1101003630: Omaha Hi/Lo Limit ($0.02/$0.04) - 2005/01/19 -22:53:11 (ET)Table 'Sigelinde' Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: ooogah ($1.21 in chips) Seat 2: CaponeTunels ($0.87 in chips) Seat 3: Lisa24 ($0.08 in chips) Seat 4: pokermom63 ($0.55 in chips) Seat 5: Ed_Morgans ($2.54 in chips) Seat 6: wonderdoob ($3.08 in chips) Seat 8: NLqueen ($0.54 in chips) Seat 9: thecandle ($1.83 in chips) Seat 10: Waffles2003 ($2.92 in chips) Ed_Morgans: posts small blind $0.01wonderdoob: posts big blind $0.02*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Ed_Morgans [4c 5c 6s 9c]tulsafats joins the table at seat #7 NLqueen: calls $0.02thecandle: calls $0.02Waffles2003: folds ooogah: calls $0.02CaponeTunels: folds Lisa24: calls $0.02pokermom63: folds Ed_Morgans: calls $0.01wonderdoob: checks *** FLOP *** [2d Td Ad]Ed_Morgans: checks wonderdoob: bets $0.02NLqueen: calls $0.02thecandle: calls $0.02ooogah: calls $0.02Lisa24: folds Ed_Morgans: calls $0.02Note thecandle checks the made nut flush on the flop. Then calls to keep everyone in. *** TURN *** [2d Td Ad] [3c]Ed_Morgans: checks wonderdoob: bets $0.04NLqueen: folds thecandle: calls $0.04ooogah: raises $0.04 to $0.08Ed_Morgans: calls $0.08wonderdoob: calls $0.04thecandle: raises $0.04 to $0.12ooogah: raises $0.04 to $0.16Betting is cappedEd_Morgans: calls $0.08wonderdoob: calls $0.08thecandle: calls $0.04Well, thecandle's trap has worked here, as I don't put anyone on a flush at this point. So in first position, I check hoping to get a raise in with the straight and nut low. Ooogah's raise tells me he might have the flush. I'm not sure where wonderdoob is at strength-wise. I don't think it's likely that thecandle is 4-betting the nut low, so the high is spoken for. But I still have that low, but am suspicious of ooogah's hand. When the betting is finished, I'm still not sure on wonderdoob.*** RIVER *** [2d Td Ad 3c] [2s]Ed_Morgans: checks wonderdoob: checks thecandle: bets $0.04ooogah: raises $0.04 to $0.08Ed_Morgans: calls $0.08wonderdoob: calls $0.08thecandle: raises $0.04 to $0.12ooogah: raises $0.04 to $0.16Betting is cappedEd_Morgans: calls $0.08wonderdoob: calls $0.08thecandle: calls $0.04Yeah, pretty clear to me now what's happened here. My guess at this point was I was quartered and either a) flush over flush for hi, or, B) wonderdoob was hanging in for 4 bets with two-pair and filled up on the river.*** SHOW DOWN ***ooogah: shows [3d 5h 9s 4h] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)Ed_Morgans: shows [4c 5c 6s 9c] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)wonderdoob: shows [9d 6d Qh Tc] (HI: a flush, Ace high)thecandle: shows [6c Qd Kd 7s] (HI: a flush, Ace high - King higher; LO:7,6,3,2,A)thecandle collected $0.75 from potEd_Morgans collected $0.38 from potooogah collected $0.37 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1.50 | Rake $0 Board [2d Td Ad 3c 2s]Seat 1: ooogah showed [3d 5h 9s 4h] and won ($0.37) with HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,ASeat 2: CaponeTunels folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: Lisa24 folded on the FlopSeat 4: pokermom63 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: Ed_Morgans (small blind) showed [4c 5c 6s 9c] and won ($0.38) with HI: astraight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,ASeat 6: wonderdoob (big blind) showed [9d 6d Qh Tc] and lost with HI: a flush, Ace highSeat 8: NLqueen folded on the TurnSeat 9: thecandle showed [6c Qd Kd 7s] and won ($0.75) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 7,6,3,2,ASeat 10: Waffles2003 folded before Flop (didn't bet)It ended up being a nice winning session, so I could have a laugh about this one, but I thought it would be worth sharing.

[ahosang 0]

My problem is deciding the size of the raise. It's the lead bettor(the other deep stack) that I'm worried about. Do I raise small or pot-size? I want to try and read him(and he's probably not toooooo bad a player), so that I may bluff on the river(against him if he possesses current nut high). Any scare cards may give me a bluff with postion. I think a small raise is best just for value. Depending on whether he just calls or re-raises, I might guess that he has low, or current nut high. The smaller stacks will probably call my small raise but may fold to a re-raise from the leader. Then again, they might just call all-in. I think a small raise (just double the bet) may be best against better opposition. It's just this oppo that sometimes confuses you - if they don't know what they're doing, how are you supposed to?I actually raised the pot in the actual game. Everyone called and the river came K The other deep stack checked - the two others were all-in, and bet the pot(a bluff for flush). The first guy called with nut low only(I got 3/4 of the side pot) and one of the all-ins had filled a nut flush so he won half the main pot, but I got a quarter of that. The fourth player had a non-nut low only and two-pair(amazing!).

[the_stein 0]

haha smash played in the same hand as Ed

[Ed 0]

haha smash played in the same hand as Ed

Yep, we were at the same table for about 45 minutes last night.

[ahosang 0]

Well, thecandle's trap has worked here, as I don't put anyone on a flush at this point. So in first position, I check hoping to get a raise in with the straight and nut low. Ooogah's raise tells me he might have the flush. I'm not sure where wonderdoob is at strength-wise. I don't think it's likely that thecandle is 4-betting the nut low, so the high is spoken for. But I still have that low, but am suspicious of ooogah's hand. When the betting is finished, I'm still not sure on wonderdoob..

With four others in the pot, you must think someone has a flush - even a baby one. I would have folded on the flop with no real high hand, but as it's limit and you got your four-way action including the river, that didn't end up a disaster. Disastrous calling from Wonderdoob.Also, pointless re-raise with a lesser hand from ooogah on the river. Strange that thecandle did not fear a full house on the river(and re-raised) given the pair on board actually duplicated a flop card. But then most low-limit omaha8 players are woefully poor.Pot-limit it's a little different, as quartering tends to cost you a lot more. Also with deep stacks, you're trying to get the river bluff(or as what happened in my case, 3/4 of a pot)

[Blink20 0]

That question, I really have no idea. Its a tough call because you may want to raise enough to maybe force out the flush draws that have no low potential and maybe make someone still drawing to a boat have to pay quite a bit and maybe fold recognizing you have the straight. The more I think about your hand, the more I like the prospect of a big raise because do you really want a value raise to keep everyone in the hand, let someone catch up to a boat or flush and get quartered. Or, would you rather have one caller that is strong either with the high or with the low and have a shot at getting 3/4 of the pot. I think if you make a good pot sized raise, the only caller you will get is someone with either the nut high or the nut low, but how possible is it that person has the nut low and the nut high as well? This is a complicated situation because if you do make that pot sized raise, you might get called by someone with the nut high and someone with the nut low, thus you've put more of your money in the pot that you are not going to get back b/c of being quartered :-( . As I said in my first response though, its more likely they're chasing and I feel your hand is strong enough to make a good sized raise to really force the weaker draws, ie flush with no low, trips with no low, to really make a decision and drive them out of the pot, or not give them the right odds to call. Only drawback... you're putting your valuable money at risk, but I think its worth it. Value betting it will only induce them to call and you'll have a bigger chance of getting quartered, atleast if you raise the pot, you make them make a stupid call to draw out on you on the river, assuming ofcourse they dont have nut low/nut high, or nut low with a better draw to freeroll to 3/4 of the pot. By the way, very good scenario posted... thanks.

[Blink20 0]

I just noticed you did say in your second post that they did call your pot sized bet on the turn, all of them. Wow. never understimate their ability to call with weak hands.You did see that you made the right play then, by looking at their hands in the showdown, stunning some things they'll show down isn't it. Haha. Its nice to see some thoughtful posts on omaha high low hands. Next time I run into an awkward situation, i'm counting on your analysis. :-)

[ahosang 0]

Disastrous calling from Wonderdoob.Also, pointless re-raise with a lesser hand from ooogah on the river. Strange that thecandle did not fear a full house on the river(and re-raised) given the pair on board actually duplicated a flop card. But then most low-limit omaha8 players are woefully poor.

Just to clarify something. It may sound as if I'm saying that thecandle(who I knew beforehand to be Smasharoo) is woefully poor What I'm saying is that I don't like his re-raise here because it's generally likely to be called by a full house(as well as any lows). I meant that he must think low-limit omaha8 players are so woefully poor that the high hands could all NOT have a full house, AND still call this bet. I see on this occasion he was right. Still don't like it though. The 2 is duplicated. Easy boat for A2, for example :shock: Also, on reflection, ooogah's river re-raises are NOT pointless given the type of opposition. It's a fair chance he has the only wheel and the others are bad lows or high scrappers.

[AA23suited 0]

I agree blinko hey yougot to get your money in when you think youve got the best of it.A pot sized raise will give any chasers the pot odds to call yet their chances of out drawing you is small..with nut low and second nut high gives you the chance to catch those limpers while forcing them to call two or three big bets to suck out!All the best,AA23suited :wink:

[KDawgCometh 2]

I think that a near pot sized bet would be in order here with this hand. You want to maximize the chance to scoop this pot. As you know you have the nut low so you want to increase the pot as much incase you do get quartered. the nut straight might be out there, with a big bet you might be able(might being the key word here) to knock them out due to the flush draw. The flush draw isn't gonna leave, that's for certain. In this position you want to get as much money into the pot as to chase out any weaker hands and build the pot as much as possible. An A2 could very well be there, but this being low limit that isn't always a garuntee

[bsabres81 0]

Not knowing your position in the hand makes what I am about to type more difficult. The important thing to recognize is who is going to be doing the betting. When you have an uncounterfeitable nut low and the 2nd nut hi, you want as much money going in the pot as possible. Ideally, you are last to act and the probable bettor is first to act. He bets and gets two calls. You have to raise around half the size of the pot. Another great situation is if you are first to act and the likely bettor acts second. Now you check, get a bet and two calls, and raise.The pot is big enough that even if you only win 1/4, it won't be harmful. In reality, you are likely to win 3/4, 1/2, or conceivably all of it. The 7 is so valuable to you in this hand. There is almost certainly another 23 out. In fact, I think it is very likely the bettor has A23, for a 6 high straight and the nut low. Little does he know you are going to quarter him. Well, he'll figure it out when you check-raise him on the turn and then bet the pot on the river (as long as the board doesnt pair or flush), but thats too late.

[bsabres81 0]

Answer: Because it was .01/.02 limitsQuestion: Why the hell was smash, who seems to know a decent amount about how to play poker, playing KQ67 in Omaha 8.I do feel his flop and turn play were correct, though jamming the pot on the river was unnecessary. Most times there are 2 aces or 2 deuces on the board, it takes at least a full house to win, because hands with aces and deuces are played more than any other.