isolate or not!!!! aug 24th

[Men the Hellmuth 0]

Well heres the situation guys.. let me know what you think...... Playing a live 60 dollar tourney.... 9 handed.... were down to the final 4..... Blinds are 300-600 ( one of those fast moving tournaments, we started with 3000 in chips ) shortstack just lost a big pot, hes under the gun and i know hes going to move all in with almost any hand ( he has 1500 in chips ) which he does, i am on the button ( i have 5000 in chips ) and next to act and i pick up Ace/10 offsuit...... now... heres the question... do you just flat call the 1500 ( only paying top 2 and 2nd is only getting his money back more or less ) and leave yourself open to a reraise from the blinds ( small blind was chip leader with 8000 in chips and hes a very loose, weak player ) or would you move all in to isolate the all in player......... forcing the blinds to pick up a monster hand , more or less to call your all in....... let me know what you think and after some discussion ill let you know what happened.............. By the way, i also posted this in the general strag....... sorry if you read both....

[kilgoretrout 0]

All in is pretty standard here, by the way, how many chips do you have? It makes a bit of a difference. But regardless, it should go all in here.

[mk 11]

I would just call. Pushing here and getting called by a hand that has you dominated sucks. If you call, and someone comes over the top, fold cheerfully.

[Rocketwadster 0]

It would be nice to know the playing style of the other two people that could get involved with this hand after us. Are these the types of people that like to defend their blinds with lesser holdings? Are they the type that are playing to win, or hoping to just make it to the final two? I think you can see the types of questions I would like answered if possible.Lots of additional info would be nice IMO...If not available, fold or push. 8)

[gobears 0]

It's a push or fold situation although knowing what BB had in terms of chips would have helped the analysis.I don't like calling because it's just inviting another player to come over the top at which point you have to fold (if you're not going to fold to the all-in, then you might as well push first).Your tourney at this point is a big crap-shot as even the chip leader's effective M is less than 5. You're going to have to get lucky with a hand. I think that A10o qualifies as that hand.

[shpaget 0]

Well heres the situation guys.. let me know what you think......  Playing a live 60 dollar tourney.... 9 handed.... were down to the final 4.....  Blinds are 300-600 ( one of those fast moving tournaments, we started with 3000 in chips ) shortstack just lost a big pot, hes under the gun and i know hes going to move all in with almost any hand ( he has 1500 in chips ) which he does, i am on the button ( i have 5000 in chips )  and next to act and i pick up Ace/10 offsuit...... now... heres the question... do you just flat call the 1500 ( only paying top 2 and 2nd is only getting his money back more or less ) and leave yourself open to a reraise from the blinds ( small blind was chip leader with 8000 in chips and hes a very loose, weak player ) or would you move all in to isolate the all in player......... forcing the blinds to pick up a monster hand , more or less to call your all in....... let me know what you think and after some discussion ill let you know what happened.............. By the way, i also posted this in the general strag....... sorry if you read both....

I call here and semi-hope for a call/raise by the SB/BB. I'd call back any re-raise. 4 handed, this is a damn good hand...UTG probably has nothing, and there's a good chance that SB/BB also have nothing/marginal - if they do they'd fold it if you pushed here, but they might call/raise the 1500 bet if they put you on nothing too.If either has good cards he's calling your push anyway....so, if you're willing to push, call....if they both call, instead of raising, use your position to your advantage post-flop. If they raise preflop, you at least have an opportunity to read what they may have and make a decision - if you push and they immediately call, it's too late.Pushing is still a good move...I'd just rather bring in a bit more money...let SB come in with QK and BB with 98s, for instance....I like my chances here in even a 4-player pot, acting last. I think with a call you can save 3500 in situations, and you can earn 3000+ in other situations - with a flat out push you'll never earn more than 1500, but you will lose 5000 in some situations.

[Men the Hellmuth 0]

I call here and semi-hope for a call/raise by the SB/BB. I'd call back any re-raise. 4 handed, this is a damn good hand...UTG probably has nothing, and there's a good chance that SB/BB also have nothing/marginal - if they do they'd fold it if you pushed here, but they might call/raise the 1500 bet if they put you on nothing too.If either has good cards he's calling your push anyway....so, if you're willing to push, call....if they both call, instead of raising, use your position to your advantage post-flop. If they raise preflop, you at least have an opportunity to read what they may have and make a decision - if you push and they immediately call, it's too late.Pushing is still a good move...I'd just rather bring in a bit more money...let SB come in with QK and BB with 98s, for instance....I like my chances here in even a 4-player pot, acting last. I think with a call you can save 3500 in situations, and you can earn 3000+ in other situations - with a flat out push you'll never earn more than 1500, but you will lose 5000 in some situations.Well guys, i appreciate all the suggestions........ ill tell you what happened..... i ended up pushing all in to isolate the all in guy and also to pick up the blinds ( 300 and 600 ) and hope to just have to beat one hand instead of 2 or possibly 3......( BTW Big Blind was sitting with about 4500 in chips.....) ... well... the small blind woke up with pocket aces and called my all in..... and thats all she wrote.... but if i would of just called the all in and the small blind would of played sneaky and also just smooth called, then i would of went broke after the flop because the flop came Ace/10/4 rainbow.... so i would of flopped top 2 and small blind would of flopped a set...... btw... short stack had 9/4 of hearts and actually flopped a flush draw but didnt make it.... but anyway thanks guys..... :wink:

[loogie 115]

This is a push. Not a call. A call here is very, very bad. You want to be heads up against this one opponent.

[Men the Hellmuth 0]

Well guys, i appreciate all the suggestions........ ill tell you what happened..... i ended up pushing all in to isolate the all in guy and also to pick up the blinds ( 300 and 600 ) and hope to just have to beat one hand instead of 2 or possibly 3......( BTW Big Blind was sitting with about 4500 in chips.....) ... well... the small blind woke up with pocket aces and called my all in..... and thats all she wrote.... but if i would of just called the all in and the small blind would of played sneaky and also just smooth called, then i would of went broke after the flop because the flop came Ace/10/4 rainbow.... so i would of flopped top 2 and small blind would of flopped a set...... btw... short stack had 9/4 of hearts and actually flopped a flush draw but didnt make it.... but anyway thanks guys.....

[DanielNegreanu 141]

This is a closer decision then you might think. If you had MORE chips you could make a case for calling and folding if one of the blinds moves in, but since you have to call 30% of your stack you'd be forced to call for the rest of your chips anyway. You can't really get away. So, it would make sense to move all in putting maximum pressure on the blinds. You might be able to get a blind off of AJ or even a hand like 66.

[Actuary 3]

9 handedStart with 3000= 27,000 totalUTG has 1500You have 5000SB has 8000BB has 4500who has the other 8,000 Chips. He's the one I'd worry about :wink: I must be missing something..Also, I push this all day long.Blinds will need huge hands to call. They are pretty glad to get down to 3 w/o being involved I'm sure.

[nutzbuster 7]

I would fold. Let the Chip leader pick him off. Too many unknowns lurking after your action behind you. Best...

[jayboogie 0]

I think it's a push or fold situation given the amount of chips you'd need to invest in order to call the raise in the first place, the pot would be laying you too much to fold even if one of the blinds moves ALL-IN. I think a push is good here, but of course you always run the risk of the blinds picking up a big hand, which happened in your case. It happens though and there's not much you could have done to avoid itAlso, with it being 4 handed, AT is a pretty big hand and you've gotta figure you have the best hand, which makes a push the proper play here given your chip position.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

it's a push or fold situation given the amount of chips you'd need to invest in order to call the raise in the first place

As for what I do, I'd push.

[TruePoker 1]

Actuary, I said that and my post got deleted....I think its an easy fold here if you think another player will fold.What is the point of losing your whole stack for 1500 + 900 in blinds, "2400"In my opinion the call isn't really worth it as with AT vs a push you still have no implied odds and are getting about 5 : 8 for your call.DN says you can push 66 or AT off a hand here, I dont think you can. AJ will definitely call if chip leader or BB especially as only first gets money.This is a complete and utter value hand. I am getting in here on a pair etc. With 9 players the pot is 8*60, about 480 dollars.We have already stated that chip leader is a junk player, may aswell just wait till it goes heads up or 3 way with the weaker opponents and outplay them.=============I wrote this before OP posted results. I think fold is best play.

[TruePoker 1]

If the shortstack pushed for 2500, then I raise all in. But for 1500 im all out.... just before people go "wtf you cant fold this" etc...Or get on the DN bandwagon and say "TruePoker disagree with Daniel Negreanu, get out of this forum amateur"To be honest I am a great huge massive fan of DN and was so jealous of the people who went on this trip, not only because they got to meet him but they actually got to play a legend. So before you say any kind of rubbish about me slating him or whatever. I know that DN's best game is shorthand but I don't think there is enough money here to warrant wasting your stack.They may even misunderstand Implicit collusion and think that calling her so that you have 4 cards against 2 is a great move.They don't really understand TEV, CEV or even tournament position at this level I think. But that is my thought on this.

[TheSpartan 0]

If the top 3 pay, I call. If someone else wants to come with me out of position, I don't mind. One of the blinds is loose/passive so he's probably going to fold. If any of them come over the top hard, it's an easy fold for me. If only 1st place pays, I fold here. The pundits who say calling rather than going all in is a bad move here are wrong. Do you think the blinds are going to try and push you out of the pot with a garbage hand against someone who is already all in? Why would you risk tripling up the short stack with a mediocre hand such as ace-rag? If you think 1500 is enough to get the blinds out most of the time, then it's best just to call. And if someone with a crappy hand calls me out of position, again I don't mind for the following reason: when one player is all in and there is no side pot, your opponent gets no benefit pushing the flop unless he has a dominating hand.

[essay 0]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought fold first. There's no reason to get mixed up in this hand. It's almost an automatic call from the big blind if he has any hand at all and you have no idea what the blinds hold. Fold here, hope the small blind loses, then play some poker.essay

[brian67 0]

Pushing here is better because you have a better chance of picking up extra dead money. Even if the all in has you beat pf, you are still giving yourself better odds on your money. With just calling you are much more likely to see a limper or two from the blinds, which will probably not be the best thing with A 10.

[Men the Hellmuth 0]

This is a closer decision then you might think.  If you had MORE chips you could make a case for calling and folding if one of the blinds moves in, but since you have to call 30% of your stack you'd be forced to call for the rest of your chips anyway.  You can't really get away.  So, it would make sense to move all in putting maximum pressure on the blinds.  You might be able to get a blind off of AJ or even a hand like 66.

Wow... i must say i did not think i would get Mr. Daniel N. to use one of my posts for his one a days.... so of course first off thanks for responding Daniel.. sorry for the delay but ive been doing some live playing of my own.. :wink: and as you can tell by my follow up i did exactly what you said and tried to isolate the short chipped player and hoped 4 handed i had the best hand and moved all in..... basically you need to come in first to make any decent money.. so i always try to amass a lot of chips because i dont play for 2nd..... and like i said before the small blind ( and chip leader ) woke up with aces and i was thru and came in 3rd ( no money ) ohh well.... but like i said before Daniel... thanks for responding and good luck with your new wife and your new future....... Chris

[lboarts 0]

I think the important factor to consider here is the number of positions paid. Only 2 (How many were in this thing anyway? lol).Some have said that 2400 is not enough to justify this call, but IMO it is. It's almost a 25% increase in your chip stack, and if you win this pot it puts you very close to the chip lead. In addition, you'll have a firm grip on 2nd, putting 2 large stacks against one small one, while on the bubble.Even knowing the outcome of this hand, I can honestly say I'd push my stack in right here and try to isolate short stack guy. A10 is a very good hand when 4 handed, and your 2 opponents behind you are in the blinds.Having said that, if top 3 were paid, I'd call and fold to a reraise, all the while cheering on the reraiser, albeit quietly and respectfully, lol.

[dscoot 0]

calling is definitely the 3rd best option. im not sure if allin or min-reraise is better.calling is bad, bc bb and small blind are getting good enough pot odds to call with virtually any two cards. a-10 is only a marginal favorite vs qj, heck even marginal fav vs 67 suited. bb and sb can call with these hands, not to mention 2/7 if they wanna get frisky. also if others call u now have to beat more than one opponent, so your only like a 40% favorite to win, maybe even less. so u dont want these people in the pot. raising allin is basically done blind to the rest of the remaining players. it is pure luck whether someone behind u picks up a hand that has u dominated or a pair bigger than nines. unless you study how your opponents are viewing their cards be4 your actions, u have virtually no way to know what they picked up. if u reraise min, people are now not getting good enough odds to call u with any two cards as mentioined before. even when someone does put u all-in, u should call more often than not, however, if say, u fold 10% of time u are reraised allin, and 90% of those times u fold u correctly put your opponent on the big hand and u make the successful muck, its worth saving your chips then.i guess i like the minraise bc if they have the big hand they are playing the hand regardless of what u do, so maybe once in a few blue moons u can save yourself your tournament cashing life by correctly assesing the situation and folding then

[BoBetter 0]

You're on a short stack, and you have a good hand, especially 4 handed. The all in player most likely is dominated by A10.This is a good spot to push, and hope a big stack calls with a amrginal holding, like ace rag, or KJ. If you win, you have a chance to win the tournament, if you lose, you took your shot, in a high expectation situation.Most of the time, short handed, you're not going to run into a better hand than A10, and like Daniel said, it may put someone off AJ or a small pocket pair.If you don't push here, you might not see a better hand for two or three rounds, which would put you in the serious red zone.Push!

[BoBetter 0]

Also, someone asked if the Big Blind was capable of putting a move on, if you just call with A10. I'll tell you right now, I make this play quite often with a big stack, if I see a weak call by a short stack, that tells me they don't like their hand very much, and don't want to play for all their chips. I would move in as a big stack here, with many marginal holdings.