I Play Cash Game, Just Amazing

[Royal_Tour 0]

Hero brand new to table.villain :I've seen him a few times, played with him a couple times. He seems kinda crap, typical abc beginner who assumes he is among the best at his table for the stakes.2/3NLhero 200.villain covers.hero is BB with Jh9h1 limp, villain limp in MP2, c/o limp, button limp, sb complete hero check.6 players ( pot $18)flop10h,8s,7dsb check, Hero bet 10. 1 fold, Villain raise to 25. folds to Hero. Hero call.turn8hhero check, villain bet 60, hero goes all-in.who loves it?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

We know the risks of any paired board with a Villain who is acting like the Pairing was Yahtzee. There are a couple of ways to lose this hand. Absent a Read this MAY be a call. Don't fall in love with OESFD. What are we putting the Villain on to make the Push? Some sort of Combo Draw? I dunno. The push is high risk/reward because we're gonna get called.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I can't figure out what villain can call us with that we beat.

[simo_8ball 0]

We know the risks of any paired board with a Villain who is acting like the Pairing was Yahtzee. There are a couple of ways to lose this hand. Absent a Read this MAY be a call. Don't fall in love with OESFD. What are we putting the Villain on to make the Push? Some sort of Combo Draw? I dunno. The push is high risk/reward because we're gonna get called.

"I'M ALL EEN! ALL EEN! I'VE GOT A STRAIGHT! STRAIGHT! WITH THREE HEARTS!"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAXCPNnKtoY

[nomad_monad 0]

correct me if i'm wrong - but is your intent here to try and fold out the same hand? you said villain is ABC, which means when he raises our lead, there's a good chance he's just straightforwardly raising the same hand as ours. he probably doesn't fold it much anyway, but maybe he does every so often because of the board pairing. if he calls, we're freerolling. if he's got a boat, well at least we're not dead.i'm ok with it so long as you've decided you're not folding to any river bet villain makes. because then this decision is value neutral compared to calling down against the boat, while marginally +EV against a str8 by very occasionally preventing the possibility of a chop outright.

[Moneyball16 0]

Pretty sure the raise is for value. From villains description and since its live I wouldnt expect villain to fold KT here, seriously.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Hero brand new to table. who loves it?

Not when we hit a card like this on the turn. Typically I slow down. No way I fold this, but wth one card to come, I like the smooth call here better.

[trystero 0]

OOP, I 3bet flop given your read that he's not that good. Generally when a bad player shows interest in a hand (by raising) I like to put him to the test right then and there.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Pretty sure the raise is for value. From villains description and since its live I wouldnt expect villain to fold KT here, seriously.

who plays live cash games often.... looks like money raised his hand here. LOL at some of the replies.. some of you have to get out of the house and play some live games more oftenPot odds, I flopped the nuts, not a draw.cobalt, you cant seriously put him on a boat here can you? given the description and the live factor.he is 100% of the time not betting the pot with a boat on this boardNomad, that went through my mind, although i thought strongly on 9,6s,however, his more likely holdings in my mind are 9,10 9,8 9,7 A,10 K,10 Money: you're moneymtdesmoines: a smooth call here leaves us with 110 and a 200 pot, which we are playing OOP, so a brick hits the river and then what?if we're beat, we're beat by a boat, which will be value betting the river, so do we call/fold? do we call/and call any river bet?what about the possibilty that villain is holding 10,9 for TP with an OESD, what kind of value can we get from him if the river bricks and he is left with 2 pair, no kicker?Trystero: i thought about it, but it came to HU, and i knew if i 3 bet this guy he would back away really quickly. 3-betting is not that common at these stakes in live games, unless its nuts vs 2nd nutshere, my 1st reaction was he wants to take control of this pot. So i let him, with the intent to trap.

[mtdesmoines 3]

mtdesmoines: a smooth call here leaves us with 110 and a 200 pot, which we are playing OOP, so a brick hits the river and then what?if we're beat, we're beat by a boat, which will be value betting the river, so do we call/fold? do we call/and call any river bet?

Yeah, we smooth call with the intent of losing our money if need be. The only hands improved with that turn are the the right two pair and a flopped set. I don't think we have either one of those hands, here. You MIGHT be looking at a chop with a free roll ... The $110 will go in easier as a bet on the river than with the CRAI with most villains.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Yeah, we smooth call with the intent of losing our money if need be. The only hands improved with that turn are the the right two pair and a flopped set. I don't think we have either one of those hands, here. You MIGHT be looking at a chop with a free roll ... The $110 will go in easier as a bet on the river than with the CRAI with most villains.

If i'm freerolling, i want the money in on the turn.The way the hand played out..... limps around, blinds check.. flop, BB throws a probe sized bet out, MP2 makes a small raise.turn pairs the 8 on a 10,8,7 flop. BB appeared weak on the flop, and checks the turn. MP2 fires out a pot sized bet.maybe its just me, but this hands doesnt make much sense for MP2 to have a monster.1- MP2 is shit. But thinks he's good. He' going to put me on a hand or two.2 - what would MP2 think Hero's holdings are.10,J, 10,Q, K,10, 9,10, 9,x, any variation of 2 pair, 10,8,10,7 8,7. The turn makes 2 of these variations into a boat.he might also think 8,9 which makes trips and an OESD.

[mtdesmoines 3]

If i'm freerolling, i want the money in on the turn.The way the hand played out..... limps around, blinds check.. flop, BB throws a probe sized bet out, MP2 makes a small raise.turn pairs the 8 on a 10,8,7 flop. BB appeared weak on the flop, and checks the turn. MP2 fires out a pot sized bet.maybe its just me, but this hands doesnt make much sense for MP2 to have a monster.1- MP2 is shit. But thinks he's good. He' going to put me on a hand or two.2 - what would MP2 think Hero's holdings are.10,J, 10,Q, K,10, 9,10, 9,x, any variation of 2 pair, 10,8,10,7 8,7. The turn makes 2 of these variations into a boat.

If you're freerolling and a blank hits the river, the money is coming in anyway. If you hit your flush, it would be unconnected, backdoor and difficult for the villain to detect. Yeah, I'm afraid of T8 and 78, but I'm not seeing a monster in the closet in this situation. We're not deep, and we're not very impressed with villain, right?

[David_Nicoson 1]

If you think he pays you off with a profitable range on the turn, then I trust that. In that case, I find it hard to believe that he'd fold those hands to a reraise on the flop.

[Royal_Tour 0]

If you think he pays you off with a profitable range on the turn, then I trust that. In that case, I find it hard to believe that he'd fold those hands to a reraise on the flop.

given the size of the pot, my position (BB) and a 3-bet, I think he folds at least half the crap holdings we can assign him.Ie: any TP good kicker, like J-Amight even fold a OESD is our 3-bet is too pricey for him. In my mind, only hands we can get paid off on the flop 3-bet are ones that have filled up on the turn. 2 pair, set.The idea was to trap the turn. I was almost 100% positive that when i show weakness he will fire the turn hard. I took a chance that a 9, or J. or maybe even a 6 might kill some of my action, but a 6, could actually create some if he has a hand like 9,10If his holdings are somewhat marginal and I smooth call the turn, and then value lead the river, i probably don;t get paid off for much unless the river actually improves his hand.by shoving the turn, i leave the option open for him to think I'm also on a draw+pair and am trying to take this pot now.Personally, I think the 8 might have killed a lot of my action, because a c/r on the turn might lead him to think i stuck around with one.however this is live NL, where everyone likes looking like a hero. Only thing is, back to the 3-bet flop. i have to be 80% sure at the least, that he has enough of a hand to call the 3-bet, or even 4 bet me all in.I think strongly this raise of his was to find out how strong i was. meaning he could throw away his hand to a 3 bet, or he could take it down on the turn if i showed weakness.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

who plays live cash games often.... looks like money raised his hand here. LOL at some of the replies.. some of you have to get out of the house and play some live games more oftenPot odds, I flopped the nuts, not a draw.

I play nothing but Live Poker.Yes, we Flopped the Nut Straight - then the board paired and the Straight is no longer the Nuts - we have an OESFD.I think he has to have at worst a Combo Draw or at even the made Boat. Apparently I am wrong or else why the Post.

[David_Nicoson 1]

In my mind, only hands we can get paid off on the flop 3-bet are ones that have filled up on the turn. 2 pair, set.. . .by shoving the turn, i leave the option open for him to think I'm also on a draw+pair and am trying to take this pot now.. . .I think strongly this raise of his was to find out how strong i was. meaning he could throw away his hand to a 3 bet, or he could take it down on the turn if i showed weakness.

Is there a reason he can't think you have a draw+pair on the flop? You'd get two cards in that case. And the board pairing doesn't help the draw.If we're being super tricky, then we can shove the river with our "missed" draw. I'm not hearing that this level of deception is necessary, though.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Observations:Royal doesn't seem to be looking for advice here becuase it basically looks like he's just telling a lot of people they're wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I see in his replies.In live games here, shoving the turn will get you called by worse hands, but it will also fold out many worse hands. I much prefer a call/donk the river or something like that then the CRAI on the turn because I think that you will get called by worse hands, but you'll also find yourself against a FH where you got A LOT of chips in very badly.You really should reraise the flop here almost all of the time. You're OOP and if the turn doesn't get bet (which you can't know) then you're not going to be able to stack him. I prefer a RR to like $65 or something on the flop and then you can probably get most of the chips in on the turn and the last few on the river. If we were in position, we could get cuter with this, but you REALLY REALLY need to play your big hands faster out of position because you risk that the villain will check behind on the next street and you won't get enough money in the pot. Another reason to do this is that there are already 3 cards to a straight out there. If he did have TPGK or something, there are A LOT of scary turn cards that will kill your action.

[UncleHoot 0]

Observations:Royal doesn't seem to be looking for advice here becuase it basically looks like he's just telling a lot of people they're wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I see in his replies.

I get tired of hearing people say that. Royal is explaining his thought processes. He is explaining how he views the hand. Others may disagree with how he views it, but so far, no one has actually made him change his mind.Sometimes, players post here because they want to see how OTHERS view the same situation. Even if Royal thinks some of these posts are way off base, it's still helpful simply from the standpoint of "Now I understand better how OTHER players may view this situation." A well reasoned and articulated post would probably be well-received.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I get tired of hearing people say that. Royal is explaining his thought processes. He is explaining how he views the hand. Others may disagree with how he views it, but so far, no one has actually made him change his mind.Sometimes, players post here because they want to see how OTHERS view the same situation. Even if Royal thinks some of these posts are way off base, it's still helpful simply from the standpoint of "Now I understand better how OTHER players may view this situation." A well reasoned and articulated post would probably be well-received.

I'm not blindly saying that and I have nothing against him. I made that statement becuase that's how it feels as though he's coming off in his replies in this thread to me.I'm not saying that he isn't listening to other opinions here, I'm saying that his posts are kind of discounting the other ways to play this hand and the other peoples reads of the sitution.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Observations:Royal doesn't seem to be looking for advice here becuase it basically looks like he's just telling a lot of people they're wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I see in his replies.In live games here, shoving the turn will get you called by worse hands, but it will also fold out many worse hands. I much prefer a call/donk the river or something like that then the CRAI on the turn because I think that you will get called by worse hands, but you'll also find yourself against a FH where you got A LOT of chips in very badly.You really should reraise the flop here almost all of the time. You're OOP and if the turn doesn't get bet (which you can't know) then you're not going to be able to stack him. I prefer a RR to like $65 or something on the flop and then you can probably get most of the chips in on the turn and the last few on the river. If we were in position, we could get cuter with this, but you REALLY REALLY need to play your big hands faster out of position because you risk that the villain will check behind on the next street and you won't get enough money in the pot. Another reason to do this is that there are already 3 cards to a straight out there. If he did have TPGK or something, there are A LOT of scary turn cards that will kill your action.

Agree with most of this (even though my feelings are still hurt over that KT scorching I just took). I have a love/hate relationship with flopped straights. They're as good as they're going to get. I usually push them pretty hard oop.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Observations:You really should reraise the flop here almost all of the time. You're OOP and if the turn doesn't get bet (which you can't know) then you're not going to be able to stack him. I prefer a RR to like $65 or something on the flop and then you can probably get most of the chips in on the turn and the last few on the river. If we were in position, we could get cuter with this, but you REALLY REALLY need to play your big hands faster out of position because you risk that the villain will check behind on the next street and you won't get enough money in the pot. Another reason to do this is that there are already 3 cards to a straight out there. If he did have TPGK or something, there are A LOT of scary turn cards that will kill your action.

We're not getting cute, we're 100% sure villain will fire the turn when checked too. i dont know why so many posts here are sooo straight forward, bet raise, shove, fold. like unclehoot said, I'm not arguing i'm correct, I'm arguing my point of view in the hand.

I'm not blindly saying that and I have nothing against him. I made that statement becuase that's how it feels as though he's coming off in his replies in this thread to me.I'm not saying that he isn't listening to other opinions here, I'm saying that his posts are kind of discounting the other ways to play this hand and the other peoples reads of the sitution.

Villain had A,10.. money was 100% correct, and actually even finished his post with "seriously".. why is his thought process so far from the some?

[nomad_monad 0]

Villain had A,10.. ?

don't ever leave that game

[Acid_Knight 2]

Villain had A,10.. money was 100% correct, and actually even finished his post with "seriously".. why is his thought process so far from the some?

Because you're really counting on someone to make a bad play to ensure that you get paid. I think that's the reason why his logic is further from others. While I inherently know that most players are just idiots, I still play hands to get the most value from them assuming that they can play the hand well becuase if I can get the money from a person who's playing well, then I can certainly get it from the people who are playing like idiots.If you think for some reason that reraising the flop will cause him to fold, then it's fine to flat the flop. But if you're really 100% sure he'll bet the turn, then why won't he call the reraise on the flop? What if the turn is a J? You're not gonna get more action. The board is as harmless as it's gonna be on the flop, so if you're not pegging him for a monster, that's when you should try and get the money in almost every time if he's dumb enough to call with one pair.I really didn't have a problem with the turn c/r for any other reason than if he checks behind, you can't stack him. I'm not worrying about being beaten here and if I am, it's no big deal. I just really think that playing hands as if the players were at least a little comptent is a better approach than assuming they're just stupid.

[nomad_monad 0]

good advice

i agree for the most part - but i think it comes down to Royal's description of villain here."crappy, ABC sort of regular"this is the kind of dude that raises TP on a flop like this to "see where he's at"if he only gets called, he's betting that turn again to "protect his hand"if he gets raised on the flop, he folds a lot (not always) because "we told him he's beat"that's not what i thought at first - but it's evident that's what Royal was thinking

[David_Nicoson 1]

I really don't want to sound like a condescending 2+2er, but I think you need to do a little self-examination here. You won a nice pot. Was it because:

1. You had a Cunning Plan which trapped the villain.
2. The turn card cooperated and the villain called off all of his chips because he's an idiot.

If you think it's more than 10% A, then you're deluding yourself, imho.