Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Table open for 1 rotation2/3NL Live 9 handedmax buyin is 200hero 200villain 200MP2 200c/o 200button 150hero is BB with 2,2villain limp, mp2,c/o button, sb all call.. hero check.5 players (pot 18)flop 2h,3h,4csb check, hero bet 12, villain raise to 25, mp2 call 25, c/o call 25, button call 25. hero?? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Reraise big. Maybe $125, maybe $100, maybe just ship it to make it look like a draw. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Author Share Posted November 11, 2007 Reraise big. Maybe $125, maybe $100, maybe just ship it to make it look like a draw.lol, thanks for the response, but I'm looking for a definite answer. cuz Ya, I already had all those thoughts run through my mind while the table waited for my actionI'm wondering the best approach everyone loves in this spot. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Well, you have to reraise, imo.The stack sizes just make it a bit difficult.There's $140 in the pot already, we could ship for $185. I think I'd do that. Link to post Share on other sites
cwik 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 your gonna have to raise this pot and your going to get stacked a lot. Make it $125 and hope for the case duce. Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 hm.interesting.i shovel here. there are two main things guiding that decision - unlike normal, i'd really like to fold villain if he's holding a worse hand here - 2 pair. i think we're going to get multiple players here a lot because of all the dead $ in the pot. so, assuming villain and at least one of the other guys comes along (or one of them is slowplaying a str8), villain's gobbling up some of our equity (v. flush draws) or outs (v. str8s). if someone besides villain has 2 pair, i don't think his action changes much whether you shove and villain calls, or you raise and villain shoves. both sequences of actions in front of someone holding 2 pair send the same basic message - they're either gonna play or not. but if villain holds 2 pair, i think the chances of him folding it go up a little bit if you shove. - we want to charge the max to draws, especially since more than one in the pot means they'll be blocking each other. with all the dead $ in there, they get at least 2-1 regardless of whether we shove and villain raises, or we raise and villain shoves. of course, their true odds are worse than 2-1, but all the more reason to make them call off more immediately.the potential downside is that if villain has a str8 or an overset, we've just isolated ourselves against him, when we'd have better EV if more $ comes into the pot from the other players. but when he calls, there will be so much dead $ in the pot that flush draws will think they have the odds to call anyway.btw, even if you were to think folding bottom set on a board like this is ok in rare instances, this isn't one of them because of all the dead $ in the pot. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Author Share Posted November 11, 2007 hm.interesting.i shovel here. there are two main things guiding that decision - unlike normal, i'd really like to fold villain if he's holding a worse hand here - 2 pair. i think we're going to get multiple players here a lot because of all the dead $ in the pot. so, assuming villain and at least one of the other guys comes along (or one of them is slowplaying a str8), villain's gobbling up some of our equity (v. flush draws) or outs (v. str8s). if someone besides villain has 2 pair, i don't think his action changes much whether you shove and villain calls, or you raise and villain shoves. both sequences of actions in front of someone holding 2 pair send the same basic message - they're either gonna play or not. but if villain holds 2 pair, i think the chances of him folding it go up a little bit if you shove. - we want to charge the max to draws, especially since more than one in the pot means they'll be blocking each other. with all the dead $ in there, they get at least 2-1 regardless of whether we shove and villain raises, or we raise and villain shoves. of course, their true odds are worse than 2-1, but all the more reason to make them call off more immediately.the potential downside is that if villain has a str8 or an overset, we've just isolated ourselves against him, when we'd have better EV if more $ comes into the pot from the other players. but when he calls, there will be so much dead $ in the pot that flush draws will think they have the odds to call anyway.btw, even if you were to think folding bottom set on a board like this is ok in rare instances, this isn't one of them because of all the dead $ in the pot.I'm surprised you didnt mention villain's range.I think besides any over sets, flopped straight, two over+FD, his range also includes 55-9,9 in EP right? Its the first rotation of the table, his min raise might be more information than it is strength.with 0 reads at this table, I'm not folding a set here. even though its bottom set and coordinating, i'd sooner blame it on a cooler than let go a hand that might be way ahead right now. agree? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Agree we aren't folding here for stack sizes in a pot with this much dead money. Link to post Share on other sites
nomad_monad 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I'm surprised you didnt mention villain's range.I think besides any over sets, flopped straight, two over+FD, his range also includes 55-9,9 in EP right? Its the first rotation of the table, his min raise might be more information than it is strength.lol - reading comprehension pwned.for some reason, i thought you were SB and villain was BB.nevermind. he usually doesn't have 34 here. CO or Button might, which means we could thrust the same logic on them after villain folds most of his range to a shove. but we'd lose a ton of EV when a smaller raise induces villain to shove with a combo draw and builds a big pot for the other guys to join in. with 0 reads at this table, I'm not folding a set here... agree?of course Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 i don't think stacks are deep enough to do anything but shove flop when its back to us even though we are gonna have to dodge a brazilian outs. hey maybe the board will pair on turn and make it easy on us. Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Shove. Link to post Share on other sites
Influcted 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I would insta-shove, but that's me. Link to post Share on other sites
Willing 2 Die 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 ya, that villian probably has an overpair and would call the shove anyways. Shovel. Link to post Share on other sites
Dictius 0 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 If you shove that gives anyone with a $200 stack 1.9:1 odds to call and a hand like Ah 9h is a 2.1:1 dog, so shoving is the only option to price out a flush draw. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 DA CHARK SAYS ALLLL-EEEEEEN Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 Table open for 1 rotation2/3NL Live 9 handedmax buyin is 200hero 200villain 200MP2 200c/o 200button 150hero is BB with 2,2villain limp, mp2,c/o button, sb all call.. hero check.5 players (pot 18)flop 2h,3h,4csb check, hero bet 12, villain raise to 25, mp2 call 25, c/o call 25, button call 25. hero??Shove. Seriously. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 Most standard shovel ever. Link to post Share on other sites
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