How Bad Did I Play This

[penne 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)UTG ($30)Hero ($227.30)MP1 ($98)MP2 ($197)CO ($193)Button ($179.50)SB ($40)BB ($120)Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 5 , 5 . 1 fold, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $6, 4 folds, Hero calls $4.Flop: ($15) A , 5 , A (2 players)Hero checks, MP2 checks.Turn: ($15) 9 (2 players)Hero checks, MP2 checks.River: ($15) 7 (2 players)Hero bets $14, MP2 raises to $30, Hero ???can i raise here??? how much???do i just call???i already know i played it like a total donk though...

[NoBBiR 0]

I lead the flop all day. Donk bet sir.If not, bet the turn.If not, reraise the river to $100, and fistpumpinstacallwithketchupandmustardonit a shove. You only legitimately lose to 77, 99, and AA, but 77 and 99 you let get there by not betting. People donk slowplay AK and AQ like this out the ass.Oh, and you're going to lose so much value checking hands like this in NLHE. Put some dolla dolla in the pot.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Bet the flop. Bet the turn.I think I just call the river.

[sactownjoey 0]

The only hand I've posted on this forum was like this one and I donked it up like this. The forum taught me two valuable lessons:1. Don't expect others to bet your hand for you.2. If villain gets there with 77, 99, it's your fault.Especially since villain was the preflop raiser, I bet the flop really hoping he has an A.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Do not bet the flop.u dont gain much by betting the flop unless he has an A.if he has an A, you will get lots of mobnies in on the turn ayways. its not a big dealwhen he checks through on the flop, bet the turn. if he has 10,10-KK he might think you're trying to buy this since he checked it through and call down lightly.obv if he has an ace, it doesnt matter eventually the money is going in.if he has Quads. oh well

[Royal_Tour 0]

I lead the flop all day. Donk bet sir.Oh, and you're going to lose so much value checking hands like this in NLHE. Put some dolla dolla in the pot.

see, the beauty of NL games is you can get all the money in on the river if you want.thats why its no limit. he doesnt lose any value from a Big Ace in this hand. trust me.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Do not bet the flop.u dont gain much by betting the flop unless he has an A.

We won't get much money unless he has an Ace anyway, so why not bet the flop?

[Royal_Tour 0]

We won't get much money unless he has an Ace anyway, so why not bet the flop?

we give him a chance to C-bet with any none ace holding. we definitely do not make it easy for him to continue without an ace if we lead out.

[Acid_Knight 2]

we give him a chance to C-bet with any none ace holding. we definitely do not make it easy for him to continue without an ace if we lead out.

I think we gain more value from non-ace two pair holdings (any pocket pair better than ours) by leading out and eliminating his choice for pot control. People donk bet board like this with air or a small pair and get raised by players in position holding KQ all of the time. I'm not counting on that, but I'm saying that if he's got 88-KK, a lot of the time he's not going to c-bet and he'll opt for pot control by checking back the flop. By donking, we eliminate that pot control option for him. Betting will rarely fold out a pocket pair 66-KK here.Yeah, donking probably loses a c-bet from KQ/QJ or any hand that's drawing almost dead, but that's all we'd really get from those hands anyway, is 1 bet. Our value will come from stacking Ax hands and making pocket pairs make mistakes.Once the flop checks through, you MUST bet the turn though. On the river, I just really hate reraising there. He's got quads or a better boat almost all of the time I think just because I think that trip aces bets the turn after you've checked twice almost always.

[David_Nicoson 1]

[x] Likely to have the best hand.[x] Likely to get action from worse hands.[x] Villain is unlikely to improve to a hand on a later street that we can still beat but gives us additional action.Therefore, bet the flop.

[Royal_Tour 0]

[x] Likely to have the best hand.[x] Likely to get action from worse hands.[x] Villain is unlikely to improve to a hand on a later street that we can still beat but gives us additional action.Therefore, bet the flop.

ummm.. how can number 2 and 3 be both checked?makes no sense.so his hand is AQ, we get action from his worse hand, but he doesnt give any on additional streets?

[David_Nicoson 1]

ummm.. how can number 2 and 3 be both checked?makes no sense.so his hand is AQ, we get action from his worse hand, but he doesnt give any on additional streets?

If AQ improves, we don't have it beat anymore. So there's no value in slow-playing against AQ to let it catch up. This is also true of pocket pairs bigger than 55.

[Moneyball16 0]

I dont get why we would bet the flop either. Most villians are betting the whole range here but are gonna fold quite a bit when we bet out. If you have a read that someone would raise a donk bet here with trash then sure bet out but I wouldnt make it my standard play.Also this is an easy raise preflop.

[Royal_Tour 0]

If AQ improves, we don't have it beat anymore. So there's no value in slow-playing against AQ to let if catch up. This is also true of pocket pairs bigger than 55.

but thats not the point that i was trying to make. I think you will agree that AQ will ship money in here no matter when we bet.even if he does no improve on the turn. We're not letting him catch up, we're letting worse hands that dont include an ace take a stab at the pot on the flop.once its checked through on the flop, I 100% agree to bet the turn. But I think we get more out of this hand by letting the pf aggressor have a shot at betting.

[Moneyball16 0]

If AQ improves, we don't have it beat anymore. So there's no value in slow-playing against AQ to let if catch up. This is also true of pocket pairs bigger than 55.

AQ is gonna draw out on us whether we lead out or c/r. Your acting like he would fold AQ. Maybe Im not understanding what your trying to say.I think its safe to say that AQ or other Aces that would raise our limp are getting it allin either way postflop. I think the purpose of betting out or c/r on the flop should be to maximize how much we get from the non A hands. And I think we get more from the non A hands by c/ring the flop.

[David_Nicoson 1]

but thats not the point that i was trying to make. I think you will agree that AQ will ship money in here no matter when we bet.

We'll certainly get some action from AQ on any street. I'm confident that if we wait to the river, he will often walk away with some chips. If he has AQ or similar, the turn card can't help our action. I agree that we pick off a c-bet if we check. That's a relatively unimportant goal, imho, because it makes us only $10 or so as compared to the extra $100 we could give up when we're both slow-playing.I'm not clear on what your quarrel is with my 3 points, so maybe you could try explaining it again.

[David_Nicoson 1]

[x] AQ is gonna draw out on us whether we lead out or c/r. [ ] Your acting like he would fold AQ.[x] Maybe Im not understanding what your trying to say.[ ] I think its safe to say that AQ or other Aces that would raise our limp are getting it allin either way postflop.[x] I think the purpose of betting out or c/r on the flop should be to maximize how much we get from the non A hands. [x] And I think we get more from the non A hands by c/ring the flop.

One of the reasons to slowplay (in general) is to let a player catch a card that allows him to pay off our hand. It's very unlikely for that to happen here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

[x] Likely to have the best hand.[x] Likely to get action from worse hands.[x] Villain is unlikely to improve to a hand on a later street that we can still beat but gives us additional action.Therefore, bet the flop.

Point 2 says that we are likely to get action from worse hands. At the point when we lead the flop, AQ, KK, Ax, 88 and everything inbetween will likely call us, validating point 2.Point 3 basically says that the villain's hand is as good as it's going to get for the most part. That means that if he's gonna give us action later, he'll give it to us now as well, so there's no reason not to bet.

[Royal_Tour 0]

how is this any different than if we flopped quads.say the board is A,5,5. Is anyone leading out this flop? its basically the same situation.villains range is pretty much 88-AA AK,AQ, maybe AJ. maybe rags. in our situation we are dead to AA. , and A,5. but we're pretty sure he doesnt hold A5he raised pf, he has position. the only reason for him not to C-bet would be because he flopped quads, or has AK and considers it just as good as quads, or is scared of the aces with a hand like JJ-KK.i think this is a perfect flop for him to bet with 88-JJ. or rags. and if he has AK, AQ. we should expect to stack him on the turn.if he has AA, bad luck.

[ah2388 0]

we gain nothing but betting this flop IMO, if he has an ace the $ is going inat no point is he folding an ace, so if he catches up then so be iti bet the turn and raise the river

[David_Nicoson 1]

how is this any different than if we flopped quads.say the board is A,5,5. Is anyone leading out this flop? its basically the same situation.

It's in some ways similar, and I don't hate a lead on this flop.On the other hand, the villain can see the pair on the board and has to consider that our lead represents a 5. I think it's likely that he flat calls with a good ace. If we check around and he improves to something like jacks full, we do benefit greatly from him catching up.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Everyone keeps saying "we stack him if he's got an A, we stack him if he's got an A" but you're not considering that the pot isn't that big. What if he "slowplays" his Ace on the flop and/or turn. Then we arrive on later streets with a smaller pot built and it's difficult to get his AI without going back and forth with several bets and raises.If he doesn't have an A, he might c-bet the flop and he might not. Let's assume that he always does, but that he "slowplays" his Ax hands. If he fires out a standard c-bet of like $9 into the $15 pot, whether we call or raise, that's really all of the money that he's gonna put into the pot. If we fire out $9 into him, we can assume he'll call with 66+ and Ax hands almost always. Well, in both cases you now get to the turn with a pot of about $33, but in one of them, you know that he's got enough of a hand to call a bet, so you can make another larger bet for liek $21 or something. The effective stacks here are almost $200. If one or more of these streets checks through, it's just unlreaisitc to assume that you're ever going to get much money from him unless there's a street where it goes, bet-raise-reraise-(call/reraise) which isn't going to happen unless he's got a really good Ax hand or has us beaten.I think the only disadvantage of leading is that we lose the c-bet from hands that airballed the flop, but some of that is even made up becuase people might raise us with air. If we are betting, we're gonna get called down by middle pairs here a lot and can sometimes get 3 streets of value whereas if we checked and let them have the lead, they'd certainly go for pot control on other streets.I think that the people who are saying that "we'll get his money on a later street if he's got any Ace" are looking at the hand wrong and should be looking at how much money you can get from other hands as well.

[psujohn 0]

how is this any different than if we flopped quads.

If he has quads villain's hand can improve to a hand that's still 2nd best.Someone mentioned a c/r on the flop and I think that's about the worst of our options here. Bet/call > c/c > c/r.

[Dictius 0]

I would c/r the flop if the villain cbets alot, but there is no value lost by just leading out on the flop.Turn is a definite bet, you have to start getting value from your hand earlier than the river.I'm probably raising the river to $90, don't know what I'd do if he shoves. If you bet on earlier streets it would probably be easier to figure out his hand.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Bet the flop. Bet the turn.I think I just call the river.

Same line. ALTHOUGH I might not have any chips left to put in by the river.

1. Don't expect others to bet your hand for you.

And do expect them to try to catch up to you for free. And don't waste a set/boat.