No Limit Win Rate

[onajojo 0]

I've played limit for a couple of years now with some success. For my main game, 4/8 limit, I'm averaging about $10/hour. I know the goal win rate for limit is one BB an hour, so I must be doing something right.However, since I moved to Vegas, No Limit is the game. I've read some books and feel like I have an edge over the donk tourists out here. I've only played twice, and won both times.My question is what is a goal win rate for no limit? Do you measure it by big blinds won, or buy-ins won, or what?

[Zach6668 513]

Hmm..I'm not too sure for live play.Online play we measure in terms of ptbb/100 hands. PTBB are essentially Big Bets from limit, so 2x the Big Blind in NL.Generally, 8 ptbb/100 is crushing, so I think that may be doable at small stakes live, so say you get 25 hands/hour, you're looking at 2 ptbb/hour, aka 4 big blinds/hour.I could be way off. I'm going to Vegas one week from today to play my first ever live NL cash game.

[onajojo 0]

While I dabbled online, had poker tracker and all that cool software, I'm not sure it relates to live play. Maybe it does and I'm not thinking it through, but I have to imagine that a win rate of $8/hr at a 1/2 NL live game is a little low. Since the mistakes in no limit are so much more damaging than limit, I would assume a higher rate than that. At 1/2 NL, is $20/hr an unrealistic goal?

[Zach6668 513]

While I dabbled online, had poker tracker and all that cool software, I'm not sure it relates to live play. Maybe it does and I'm not thinking it through, but I have to imagine that a win rate of $8/hr at a 1/2 NL live game is a little low. Since the mistakes in no limit are so much more damaging than limit, I would assume a higher rate than that. At 1/2 NL, is $20/hr an unrealistic goal?

What I just explained to you was for No Limit and had nothing to do with limit. 8 ptbb/100 translates to 4 bb/hour assuming 25 hands per hour are dealt.8 ptbb/100 is pretty well crushing the online game, which is why I assumed it could be done by an average winning player in a live NL game. It has nothing to do with mistakes in NL being more damaging than LHE (which is only a half truth, anyways).The real problem with being able to make a decent hourly wage at 1/2 NL is the simple fact that you don't see nearly enough hands when you play live. Especially to overcome the variance. Remember, we are talking long run here. If you play two sessions of 5 hours each, and win $1000 which is certainly possible, it does not mean your winrate will be 50 bb/hour.I'm probably being a bit conservative, but I doubt most players could do significantly better than $8-$12/hour, while a great player may be able to hit $12-$18/hour?This is all just theory in my head, but maybe some of the live NL players could comment.- Zach

[homnig 0]

Hmm..I'm not too sure for live play.Online play we measure in terms of ptbb/100 hands. PTBB are essentially Big Bets from limit, so 2x the Big Blind in NL.Generally, 8 ptbb/100 is crushing, so I think that may be doable at small stakes live, so say you get 25 hands/hour, you're looking at 2 ptbb/hour, aka 4 big blinds/hour.I could be way off. I'm going to Vegas one week from today to play my first ever live NL cash game.

I'm confused, 8ptbb/100 in NL would be 16 big blinds per 100 hands or 8 big blinds per 100 hands?

[David_Nicoson 1]

Hmm..I'm not too sure for live play.Online play we measure in terms of ptbb/100 hands. PTBB are essentially Big Bets from limit, so 2x the Big Blind in NL.Generally, 8 ptbb/100 is crushing, so I think that may be doable at small stakes live, so say you get 25 hands/hour, you're looking at 2 ptbb/hour, aka 4 big blinds/hour.I could be way off. I'm going to Vegas one week from today to play my first ever live NL cash game.

I've found my winrate per hour two-tabling online is very close to my single table live rate per hour at the same stakes. So in $/hand, I'm beating the live game at 4x or so the online rate. There's a lot of estimation in my time and I don't have a ton of live hours, so I could be off quite a bit.

[Zach6668 513]

I'm confused, 8ptbb/100 in NL would be 16 big blinds per 100 hands or 8 big blinds per 100 hands?

8 ptbb is 16 big blinds, I think.There's a 2p2 thread talking about winrates in NL. Anything over 8 ptbb/100 is crushing, IIRC.It's been a while since I played NL, so I could be confused, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.Yea, just did some math in my PT DB of all $100 NL hands I've played.5.72 ptbb/100, and I average 130.94 hands/hour in this DB, and according to PT, my hourly was $14.97.5.72 ptbb/100 x 2 = 11.44 bigblinds/100 = $11.44/100 hands, then 130.94/100 * 11.44 = $14.97/hour. So that is how PT calculates it.

[homnig 0]

8 ptbb is 16 big blinds, I think.There's a 2p2 thread talking about winrates in NL. Anything over 8 ptbb/100 is crushing, IIRC.It's been a while since I played NL, so I could be confused, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.Yea, just did some math in my PT DB of all $100 NL hands I've played.5.72 ptbb/100, and I average 130.94 hands/hour in this DB, and according to PT, my hourly was $14.97.5.72 ptbb/100 x 2 = 11.44 bigblinds/100 = $11.44/100 hands, then 130.94/100 * 11.44 = $14.97/hour. So that is how PT calculates it.

O that's good news then, I always asumed ptbb/100 was bb's/100 and since people were saying you can't go higher than 10 I was unhappy, but now I'm very happy Was it hard to get 5.72ptbb/100 at .5/1 NL? Do you think you could have gone higher?

[Abbaddabba 0]

I think mathematically speaking, anyone who's played enough hands of 4/8 limit live to get a good estimate of what their true winrate is would have killed themselves already from boredom.

[Zach6668 513]

O that's good news then, I always asumed ptbb/100 was bb's/100 and since people were saying you can't go higher than 10 I was unhappy, but now I'm very happy Was it hard to get 5.72ptbb/100 at .5/1 NL? Do you think you could have gone higher?

I think I ran my first 15-20k at 10 ptbb/100. If you check the goals threads from whenever I did my NL stint, my goal was to maintain 10 ptbb/100, lol. So naive. I think I did develop a few leaks though and that's what caused my drop. Fwiw, that's over < 30k hands, so not a great sample size.

[homnig 0]

I think I ran my first 15-20k at 10 ptbb/100. If you check the goals threads from whenever I did my NL stint, my goal was to maintain 10 ptbb/100, lol. So naive. I think I did develop a few leaks though and that's what caused my drop. Fwiw, that's over < 30k hands, so not a great sample size.

o i see. I think I've asked you this before, but why did you make the switch from NL to LHE again?

[Zach6668 513]

o i see. I think I've asked you this before, but why did you make the switch from NL to LHE again?

They told me NL was easier. I was also pretty burnt out on LHE and wanted a new challenge I think. I've since gone back to LHE.

[homnig 0]

They told me NL was easier. I was also pretty burnt out on LHE and wanted a new challenge I think. I've since gone back to LHE.

cool, thanks. Gl with the limit btw.

[seemorenuts 0]

I use buyins/hour, since it incorporates the risk involved.My best was at a venue with that whale I refered to earlier, who loses $20K per month.I was making .58333 buyins per hour, also, there were two less wealthy players there that were worse than him!

[Highlow16 0]

5 ptbb/100 in NL is always my goal. Sort of the bar i set for myself. I think that .50-1.00 NL and lower can be beaten for 7.5 ptbb/100, I didnt, but I think its doable.

[jmkiser 0]

I use buyins/hour, since it incorporates the risk involved.My best was at a venue with that whale I refered to earlier, who loses $20K per month.I was making .58333 buyins per hour, also, there were two less wealthy players there that were worse than him!

That is pretty extreme depending on what limits you're playing. What's the sample size on that, though?