trystero 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 no reads on villain...Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP ($3.15)CO ($1.91)Button ($4.39)SB ($1.13)Hero (BB) ($2)UTG ($2.16)Preflop: Hero is BB with A , 10 , 8 , 9 UTG bets $0.06, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.04Flop: ($0.13) A , J , 8 (2 players)fast or slow? and why? Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 i'd say fast (like c/r) but every time i'm in this situation im against the last two Aces and a flush draw and stack off. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 slow, we have marginal hand and very weak draws and probably can only create folding equity on the flop so stab flop and very slow going forward Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 slow, we have marginal hand and very weak draws and probably can only create folding equity on the flop so stab flop and very slow going forwardthats insanely counterintuitive. we dont have much fold equity by betting out the flop unless he has KKxx and thats it. and theres no reason to chase him away if thats what he has.so you want to bet at it hoping he folds and then slow down if he doesnt? what, then, is our bet hoping to accomplish? we fold out weaker hands and get called (or more likely raised) by stronger ones. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 thats insanely counterintuitive. we dont have much fold equity by betting out the flop unless he has KKxx and thats it. and theres no reason to chase him away if thats what he has.Im just saying our only chance for folding equity is the flop but we have a little bit of a hand that may improve on turn so i try and take my stab and re-eval turn knowing if i even get called i check fold on a lot of turns. It is too wild in my opinion to go balls deep with this hand, and too nitty to just check fold flop Link to post Share on other sites
MaxStPolish 4 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.First, you are in for a mere 3BB's right now. Flush draws are sticking around or raising. Bevy of straight draws are sticking around or raising. A FD with any sort of straight-wrap is well ahead of you, and this doesn't factor in any times you are against a made set, 2 pair, etc. etc. I would fold this hand outright before I went to battle with it post flop. Pretend you have a gut shot-1, because four of your open-end straight outs make a better nut straight, and one of those four "nut straight" outs actually puts a flush on board. Even if you are ahead currently, there's a ton of holdings that are favorites on you with two to go here. You have no runner-runner flush re-draw, the straight is marginal as noted above. You have 2nd 2 pair and some maybe hands. I know I'm downplaying the times that your ace/8 is actually good at current, but I think you are rarely playing a weaker ace that doesn't have sufficient draws to still make this -EV. I also know it would be really weak to always fold top pair to a continuation bet in this game. But without sufficient reads you can only really peel one off here before signing off, and I think that unless you hit one of your 3 gin outs on the turn, or another ace drops, you really can't withstand another PSB here on the turn. And without position, you can't really get crafty at all. check/call/reevaluate>check/fold>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bet/check-raise Link to post Share on other sites
trystero 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 well I ended up c/c the flop and c/fing a blank turn to a PSB, but felt that I may not have been properly valuing my hand Link to post Share on other sites
MaxStPolish 4 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 well I ended up c/c the flop and c/fing a blank turn to a PSB, but felt that I may not have been properly valuing my handThis is exactly how I would have played the hand.If he doesn't throttle down on the turn, you gotta release here. Link to post Share on other sites
dingas 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Check call flop, check fold turn unimproved doesn't seem bad. A lead on the flop may be better to make villain define his hand, but if he raises we probably have to fold. I don't mind either line, really. Link to post Share on other sites
Shark527 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Would anyone fire away if there was not a flush draw? Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Would anyone fire away if there was not a flush draw?without the flush draw i think it is a def. check call reeval turn to see if we maybe can induce another bluff, the flush draw is the exact reason why i wanted to take a stab in the first place, or is my thinking really backwards here? Link to post Share on other sites
dingas 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 It's an interesting question. With the 2-flush flop, the chance of folding out small flush draws is a reason for betting. On the other hand, we get raised more as a semi-bluff, so if we are folding to a raise, we will be making a mistake more often. Also, when called, flush cards hitting on the turn will cause us to freeze, stopping us from getting value when our hand is good, or allowing us to get bluffed out, or giving villain a free card to draw out. Without the 2-flush our hand has more value against a random hand, so there is more incentive to bet for value/ fold equity. Also fewer cards cause us to shut down on the turn. I think for these reasons I'm more inclined to bet when there is no flush draw, but I think in either case both check/call and betting are fine. Link to post Share on other sites
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