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Value Check Up


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#1 cwik

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 04:30 PM

Nothing too exciting here. Villain is an 45/13/2.0/30 donk that has only been sitting at the table for a few orbits.Basically, on the end, is this a good spot to bet for value, or should we just check it down.Absolute PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.50/$15 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $47.35CO: $40Hero: $119.95SB: $83.30BB: $72.75Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with :club: :D UTG, folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls, SB folds, BB (poster) checks.Flop: :) :D :) ($3.5, 3 players)BB bets $3, CO folds, Hero calls.Turn: :D ($9.5, 2 players)BB bets $4, Hero calls.River: :D ($17.5, 2 players)BB checks, Hero...

#2 No_Neck

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 05:04 PM

I like an $8-$10 bet here, and you would probably have to fold to a raise. because if he raises your hand is no good.

#3 Acid_Knight

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 05:11 PM

Meh, it's close. If I were in the hand, I'd check KJ there (if I was the villain) and just let you do your thing. I probably check behind here because I'm always surprised how often I get the c/c from people who have better hands.

#4 mln_falcon

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 06:33 PM

Value from what, middle pair just improved, the flush draw got there and there aren't very many weaker J's. Your possibly getting a call from a frustrated J3 or J4 but I think there is no value in bet here. Even lower pp's are going to have a really tough time calling

#5 AimHigher

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 09:46 PM

Makes the easiest check in the world.There is not much value in betting here because the only thing paying you is a weaker jack.

#6 Snamuh

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 10:19 PM

Just check behind. Better hands are check/calling here and there aren't many weaker hands that are going to be calling here.
Snamuh raises to $76.75, and is all in
BigKamp: yyou lose
BigKamp has 15 seconds left to act
BigKamp calls $24.50, and is all in
Seat 1: BigKamp (small blind) mucked [Ad Ac] - a full house, Aces full of Kings
Seat 2: Snamuh (big blind) showed [Kd Kh] and won ($102.50) with four of a kind, Kings
Snamuh: you lose

#7 cwik

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 12:54 AM

I usually check behind here too. But I think I have been giving up a little too much value on turns and rivers. My aggressive numbers on 4th and 5th street are 2.22 and 1.57 respectively, I think I would like to raise these about half a point each or so. Donno if this is the spot for it or not, but it the most recent hand that just came up that I had to think about river value. I understand we shouldn't purposely try to play to numbers, which is why we are looking at spots, like this.As for this hand individually, I am still leaning a bit more to betting. First lets look at hands that beat us: flush, boat, 9x, overpair, AJ, KJ. I really think it would be strange for any of those hands to check the river except a J, or maybe an over pair which is extremely unlikely due to preflop action, AJ would also be semi unlikely but plausible for the same reason. IMO it really only leaves KJ, and anything else as a super rareity.On the other hand this could also be JT-J2, which all call 90% of the time. Thats 8 hands we beat in his range, against 1 that we don't. I suppose I am not couning all the strange lines with a monster he could have, however I really think that is counter acted by all the times he looks us up with medium pairs or A4/A3.Anther nice thing about this particular hand is the villain will almost never c/r here without a hand and in the cases he does we don't even have a tough decision to let it go.I think I and a lot of others pass on this spot which is giving up a likely positive EV situation because we want to play it safe.

#8 mikeysong

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 12:58 AM

View Postcwik, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 1:54 AM, said:

I usually check behind here too. But I think I have been giving up a little too much value on turns and rivers. My aggressive numbers on 4th and 5th street are 2.22 and 1.57 respectively, I think I would like to raise these about half a point each or so. Donno if this is the spot for it or not, but it the most recent hand that just came up that I had to think about river value. I understand we shouldn't purposely try to play to numbers, which is why we are looking at spots, like this.As for this hand individually, I am still leaning a bit more to betting. First lets look at hands that beat us: flush, boat, 9x, overpair, AJ, KJ. I really think it would be strange for any of those hands to check the river except a J, or maybe an over pair which is extremely unlikely due to preflop action, AJ would also be semi unlikely but plausible for the same reason. IMO it really only leaves KJ, and anything else as a super rareity.On the other hand this could also be JT-J2, which all call 90% of the time. Thats 8 hands we beat in his range, against 1 that we don't. I suppose I am not couning all the strange lines with a monster he could have, however I really think that is counter acted by all the times he looks us up with medium pairs or A4/A3.Anther nice thing about this particular hand is the villain will almost never c/r here without a hand and in the cases he does we don't even have a tough decision to let it go.I think I and a lot of others pass on this spot which is giving up a likely positive EV situation because we want to play it safe.
wtf, capitalize and bet it for value. You could fold to a river bet here but you can't check when he checks, especially given the fact that you said he will not c/r bluff here.And pf is a definite definite raise if you like money.

#9 cwik

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 01:01 AM

View Postmikeysong, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 1:58 AM, said:

wtf, capitalize and bet it for value. You could fold to a river bet here but you can't check when he checks, especially given the fact that you said he will not c/r bluff here.And pf is a definite definite raise if you like money.
yeah, not 100% sure why I limped this pot. It is something I almost never do, and do not know why Ii did in this spot. I agree it is a raise pf.

#10 CobaltBlue

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 01:19 AM

In talking with both of y'all, I understand why mikey absolutely wants to bet this river. I think it's typically going to be a thinnish but good value-bet against this opponent. The only major factor that might swing it to a check is that we're so early in our encounter that info (the hand he holds for the line he took) might be more valuable down the road.

#11 mikeysong

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 01:27 AM

View PostCobaltBlue, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 1:19 AM, said:

In talking with both of y'all, I understand why mikey absolutely wants to bet this river. I think it's typically going to be a thinnish but good value-bet against this opponent. The only major factor that might swing it to a check is that we're so early in our encounter that info (the hand he holds for the line he took) might be more valuable down the road.
and my counter-argument is a definite NO.If we assume he folds top pair or worse 100% of the time, then checking is better than betting (obviously doesn't happen)however, villain is calling an x% of the time and given that we are pretty confident he never cr bluffs here, we must be bet for value as we are only realistically afraid of one hand, KJ.Would you rahter check here to see his hand or make 12-15bbs here while seeing his hand a good amount of the time?Information is nice, however we have enough information given postflop, whether he folds or calls the river.Cwik - after this hand, I am more liable to raise his donk bets on the flop and fire a near pot sized if not pot sized bet on the turn depending on the texture. It's really important to note that villain here leads weak.I just believe here that taking hte passive route against a transparent villain like this is ultimately foolish. Don't you guys like money? : /

#12 mikeysong

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 01:28 AM

View PostCobaltBlue, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 1:19 AM, said:

In talking with both of y'all, I understand why mikey absolutely wants to bet this river. I think it's typically going to be a thinnish but good value-bet against this opponent. The only major factor that might swing it to a check is that we're so early in our encounter that info (the hand he holds for the line he took) might be more valuable down the road.
p.s. i miss your cute southern accent marchywarchy :club:-mikesywikesy

#13 Zach6668

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 07:55 AM

View Postmikeysong, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 4:28 AM, said:

p.s. i miss your cute southern accent marchywarchy :club:-mikesywikesy
Hey, maybe next time you and Marchant can share a bed so I don't have to sleep on the couch. Seems like it'll make all of us happy.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#14 mikeysong

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 10:17 AM

View PostZach6668, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 7:55 AM, said:

Hey, maybe next time you and Marchant can share a bed so I don't have to sleep on the couch. Seems like it'll make all of us happy.
I'll think about it if you can do two things1) learn to win @ poker2) not complain about it 24/7 : )




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