To Josh Arieh...

[kevin562 0]

Hey Josh,First off congrats on the 3rd Place finish in the World Series. Second, I was just wondering during your heads-up match with Harry Demetriou; you were on a flush draw and he put you all in. You made a comment to someone in the crowd, "I can't believe he put me all in with that hand" Was it not the correct move? Whatelse could he have done since he did have the high pair with A's?You made a comment to David Williams about busting the Fossilman and called him a mother*****, my first impression of you was that you are a total a$$ but now I think that you are misunderstood. I would love to see you and Phil Hellmuth go at it!You played with David Williams at the WSOP and at the Borgata this year I believe...what's your 2 cent on his game?- kevin

[J_The_Ripper 0]

Why that is going to be considered a bad play is because Josh raised utg, flop came like AKQ?, pretty much any hand that he is raising utg with is going to have AJ crushed on that flop, but yet he put all his money in on it. As for his behavior, I've played with him quite a few times and watched his play as well on stars, and he is always very kind and talkative and always answering all the railbirds questions. Sadly the only thing that is going to stick in people's heads about him are the comments made at wsop Maybe when the WPT broadcast his FT there next season he will come off on TV better.

[halvey7 0]

I was going to reply the same was as "J" did, but what's his name on PS?

[J_The_Ripper 0]

Razorbax

[halvey7 0]

i knew that LOL, forgot for some reason, THX

[RickyG033 0]

I think Josh Arieh is 100% competitive...I can tell just by watching, that this guy has passion. HE wants to win more than anyone out there, and Im sure his emotions just took over at some points of the WSOP. Its only the single biggest poker tournament in the world. Also, I would have said the same thing to Williams about Raymer. I don't know if there was any table talk that got Josh to dislike Raymer, but to me Raymer came off as a complete jerk. Those stupid glasses he wears makes it seem like he's disrespecting the game. And anyone who yells "Presto!!" after knocking a guy out, doesnt deserve to wear a WSOP bracelet or even be in the same room as these other pros.Just my $.02

[illpoker 0]

I Have never understood why people care how someone else acts in a game they weren't a part of anyway! I could fully understand if someone in the game thought Arieh acted like a jerk and therefore didn't like him, but I wasn't in the game so why should I care what he said or how he said it? Just beacuase it was on television doesn't mean it should matter to me or to you. I have never met Josh, nor played against him, He seems like a good player from what I have seen on tv, that is all I know, Why should I judge him to be "AN A Hole?" He has never been rude to me.-ill

[Polakplayer16 0]

Although Arieh is a good player. Phil Hellmuth is a legend. I think the match would swing both ways in the short run but after like a week of playing Hellmuth would come out on top. Either way I think it would be fun to watch, not only for the great play but also for the chitter chatter,Josh I know your competitive, And i respect your play a great deal.But its Hellmuth. You understand.

[south philly cat 0]

HI ALL I DONT AGREE WITH THE PEOPLE THAT SAY THAT SINCE JOSH RAISED UNDER THE GUN AND THE FLOP WAS A K Q THAT HE WOULD HAVE CRUSHED AJ THAT IS BS FIRST OF ALL HE COULD HAVE ANYTHING EG, DANIEL RAISED UNDER THE GUN WITH 4/7 SUITED SO I DONT THINK ANYONE IS GOING TO FOLD TOP PAIR WITH THE FLUSH DRAW IF THEY KNOW THAT THE PLAYER IS A TRICKY ONE COME ON GUYS THIS IS 101 STUFF :twisted:

[halvey7 0]

AKQ with 2 suited cards in the flop is one of the worst flops you can get that pairs your A, if you noticed Arieh didn't have a huge chip stack at that time, so the chances of him having a 47s is pretty unlikely, Demetriou didn't have a flush draw, Josh did, this makes me wonder did you even see the hand??? Your getting all your facts wrong, you think AKQ with 2 hearts is a good flop for AJ, maybe you should stick to the micro buyin tourneys, this is also Arieh we're talking about not Daniel if you didnt know... :roll:

[marchingant 0]

And anyone who yells "Presto!!" after knocking a guy out, doesnt deserve to wear a WSOP bracelet or even be in the same room as these other pros.Just my $.02

Raymer had pocket 5's, which (apparently) is also known as "Presto."I didn't see anything wrong with Josh's behavior. I think he could have chilled a little bit after he won the hand with Harry, but that's just me. I also think it was a very bad call on David William's part to call for 1/3rd of his stack on a pair of 5's, but the guy plays much better than me, and maybe it was the right call pre-flop.What I want to know is....Would Josh have made a move at the pot when John Murphy hit a full house, and Josh had King high flush. I think I definately would have checked in Murphy's spot.

[halvey7 0]

that was a hell of a laydown in Arieh's spot, I don't think I would of checked if I was Murphy, but I would of put in a smaller bet then allin, last night I made a laydown with a board 78986 and I had the 10, ended up laying it down, one guy had the other 10 and the other guy had 10J, but laying down the K high flush would be VERY tough

[marchingant 0]

that was a hell of a laydown in Arieh's spot, I don't think I would of checked if I was Murphy, but I would of put in a smaller bet then allin, last night I made a laydown with a board 78986 and I had the 10, ended up laying it down, one guy had the other 10 and the other guy had 10J, but laying down the K high flush would be VERY tough

I think I woul dhave had to lay it down if he only had the King high flush, because the Ace was hidden (I think, I don't recall if Josh had the nuts or not). Unless he put Murphy on a fullhouse, which is just crazy.

[kevin562 0]

Yes I do believe it was a great lay down. When Murphy was betting and Josh was calling, Josh was calling to get his flush, which he did. He couldn't put Murphy with a Ace High Flush, he knew the Queen on the river pair and if Murphy already had a set, he made his full boat. He knew Murphy had the full house and I quote "I can't believe I'm laying this hand down" Great Read and a high five to David Williams to check in the dark when he flop his set of 5's and I think Marchel Luske (i hope i didn't mis-spell his name) stole the entire WSOP, even though he didn't win. He's great for poker and he's a great player!- kevin

[kevin562 0]

:-)

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Although the question was not addressed to myself directly I will not answer it fully or get into specifics as I have done so previously elsewhere. The specific hand in question is also a lot more complex than would at first appear when looked at in isolation of everything else that went on at the table both before and during the hand itself.However one general comment I will make is to say that no limit tournament poker is often about making decisions, placing opponents on hands and being prepared to back your judgement. (It's the reading your opponent part of the game).Sometimes when you do this you are proved right whilst at other times you are proved wrong and look like a complete idiot.Because you never have all the information the above statement will always be true and a key element of the game, but, if you ever get to the point that you are not prepared to back your judgement or get too scared to pull the trigger then you should give up playing.Ideally when you commit lots of chips you want to be the aggressor or instigator in such situations but as already pointed out sometimes you will be in front and at other times you will be behind.I draw an analogy of this to backgammon where they say that "If you never get gammoned, then you are not taking enough cubes."Similarly in poker if you always find yourself in front when the chips go in then you are not playing correctly.Just a general point for you all to ponder.

[RickyG033 0]

Just wondering...which poker pro is WiseOwl??thanks..

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Wsie Owl = Harry Demetriou

[RickyG033 0]

Wow!!...plesure to be speaking with you Harry.

[halvey7 0]

hey Harry I changed my mind it was a Great Play, and I take back everything I said, LoL, I hope Arieh doesn't see this...then I might have to change my mind again

[marchingant 0]

Although the question was not addressed to myself directly I will not answer it fully or get into specifics as I have done so previously elsewhere. The specific hand in question is also a lot more complex than would at first appear when looked at in isolation of everything else that went on at the table both before and during the hand itself.

Please, any insight into the mid of a pro would be greatly appreciated, certainly by me, and probably by many others.

...in poker if you always find yourself in front when the chips go in then you are not playing correctly.

By "in front" do you mean ahead in the hand? Meaning you're playing to tight and need to take a risk every now and then?

[Randy Reed 0]

Playing from "in front" means that you are currently leading during the hand, for instance you hold AQ and flop is AQ5. Wise Owl states and alot of pros and books say the same, that if you don't occasionaly play "from behind" you're not playing correctly. In the above instance assume that you hold KJ and are 4 suited with numerous outs, currently you would be behind but would continue under correct circumstances.

[Randy Reed 0]

Another thing about Josh though. I watched the whole last table live at pokerstars. You couldn't here any talk or actually see them, just the play and any cards that got exposed. From the get go Josh was the most aggresive player, consistently raising blinds and doing battle. It was immensely entertaining to watch him "work". At the final table, you'd think many would be timid but Josh went all out and for a while I was expected him to bust someone big, but alas the cards didn't pan out. Valiant effort on his part and 3rd in the WSOP is something to be proud of, needless to say. After watching on TV, it was funny to how it panned out and I could understand Josh's frustration a little better I thought.

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Please, any insight into the mid of a pro would be greatly appreciated, certainly by me, and probably by many others.==========================================================The first thing I have to say is that this was not a very straightforward or simple situation in which I found myself but I shall do my best to try and relay the thoughts that were going through my head at the time but please remember that the following is a very brief synopsis (despite this being very long) of the situation.Firstly Josh raised under the gun what I would describe as a sub standard amount and this was followed by a call from John Murphy in mid position.I was already part the way in as I was the big blind so a hand that I would normally throw away in the BB (AJ offsuit) when an utg solid player raises was a no brainer as I was getting teriffic pot odds.The stack sizes were roughly 1.25 milion for me 900k for Josh and around 1.6 million for John Murphy.Now I had played quite a bit with John Murphy over the previous couple of days but not at all until that day with Josh at the feature table.When John Murphy called I immediately put him on a pair like 8's or 7's or 6's (I think he subsequently was found to have a pair of fours).Note the key elements here I was getting very good pot odds we all had good chips and John Murphy was also in the hand.Now a bit of history.I already knew a little about Josh having heard of a couple of hands that a friend had played with him for big chips on days 2 and 3. It was obvious that he was what I would term a busy or aggressive player in that I had him down as a player that likes to get involved and dominate at a table. The problem, however, was that he was to my immediate left which is not where you want such a player to be sitting especially when you envisage yourself as a similar type of player.Anyway to cut a long story short I think Josh was a little frustrated when transferred to the feature table as he was basically forced to shut down and behave in a rather quiet fashion in that he had a hard time getting into any pots. As I recall there were a few times he would raise and others including myself would reraise him forcing him to fold or a few of us would put raises in first preventing him from entering the pots in the first place.Anyway that's a bit of history and if you think that previous history at the table is irrelevant then you have a long way to go in poker as you should always try and remember what has gone on before between yourself and other players because it is important to vary your play and try and fool opponents at some future stage.Then the critical hand came up where I call in the BB getting around 4 or 5/1.The flop came AKhQh (not sure what the Ace was but may have been a club).On seeing this flop I now started to think about what Josh had (please bear in mind nobody can ever be totally accurate in their best guess as to what someone else is ever holding) and concluded that he could have been holding a very wide range of hands due to his style of play which so far had been seriously curtailed for the above mentioned reasons. As such there was a good chance he was going to check behind me. His smallish pre flop raise could have meant super strength but it could also have meant scaredness because he had already been regularly forced to lay down previous if not all hands he had played pre flop earlier on.I decided to check because I felt at this stage that this would be my best play for having a crack at John Murphy's stack. If I were correct in my thinking that John Murphy had a mid pair then if Josh checked behind me then I felt certain John Murphy would bet with a mid pair (I had found John MUrphy to be a very aggressive and good player in previous encounters) and I would check raise him all in or half my stack depending on what he decided to bet. (Remember I had played with John Murphy a fair bit previous to this hand).Unfortunately Josh spoiled the master plan and bet around 400k or just under half his stack which was then followed by a fold by John Murphy.I now had some serious thinking to do. I simply had to put Josh on a hand and this was going to be difficult because he was an early position raiser and had not been involved in very much at all at this particular table.Did Josh have a pair? a set? two pair? a draw?I took a long time over my decision to put Josh all in as I was calculating in my mind what kinds of hands Josh could be holding. I new the type of player he was but was he capable of bluffing in this spot with John Murphy to act behind him? I thought that this was a distinct possibility because like me I reckoned Josh would have put JM on a mid pair so it was very possible that he could be thinking if he bet then we would both fold. I had already shown weakness by checking so there was a good chance he could pick up the pot there and then which was not insignificant in size. The problem however was that he bet a large proportion of his stack indicating he was pot committed and it was larger than the pot size which generally indicates weakness or maybe fear of a draw being out there like a gut shot with a pair or a flush draw.In conjunction with the possibility of a bluff there was also a distinct possibility that Josh's play was brought about through sheer frustration as he had been fairly intensely bullied at that table and been kept out of play and this is not something that can be underestimated. (There are numerous examples of where I and many other players will simply take a stand after being bullied repeatedly by one or all the other players as it is important regardless of your holding to make sure people understand that they can't keep pushing you around).Because of the size of the bet I excluded Josh having a monster hand like a set or two pair. From my experience of good players I find that they tend to bet monstor hands but not by so much as they are prepared to take the risk of a card coming off on the turn that could hurt them in order to get more money out of opponents.Although not impossible that I was drawing dead I also discarded the flush draw unless Josh had a hand such as Ax suited in hearts. (I also knew that I had a red ace in my hole cards.Holding an Ace myslef made it unlikely that Josh had an Ace so I was now down to deciding if he had a set of Queens, set of Kings or two pair and a small possiblity of Ax hearts or maybe he was bluffing or betting big with an underpair. He may even have been holding the nut straight with a JT suited but my Jack made this another remote holding.I kept coming back to what Josh could be holding and why he put so much in and came to the definite (in mind) conclusion that he was holding something like a pair (such as Tens down) or an AT (top pair with Gutshot) but definitely not Ax of hearts and almost certainly not a monstor. (unfortunately when I checked back at my hole cards I was extremely disappointed to see that I was holding the Ad and not the Ah so the Ax hearts was a possibility). There was also the more likely bet by Josh with him holding something like a pair with a gut shot straight draw (say KT, KJ or QT, QJ or AT). At any rate these were the kind of hands I put him on that may have led him to bet so big and yet still lay down.This decision took an eternity and I was certainly not going to rush into any decision but concluded that Josh was not on the flush draw because with his more than decent sized bet I felt he was telling me that he didn't have the flush draw with the Ace and that there was a real possibility that he could lay down if I put him all in. I was also convinced that he didn't have a monstor hand and that if that was the case he was the type who was more than capable of taking a partial risk with a smaller bet to extract more out of myself and/or John Murphy if we chose to play.So I concluded he had TT or a weak Ace or AT or an under pair and was in effect bluffing as these may well cause him to play the way he did especailly as there was a chance that he could also lay down. With the suited Ace in hearts I feel he may well have pushed all his chips in on the flop rather than bet just under half as generally players putting in half their chips prefer to push them all in rather than just half. (BTW Had Josh moved all in I would most probably have folded at this point).I also had to start thinking what Josh would think I held if I went all in. This may sound odd but in tournaments you have to start thinking about what the toher player thinks you think he thinks (does that make sense?) To be honest I was rather shocked when he turned over 9hTh as I had excluded theunder card flush draw.My own holding of AJ off was not a great hand to be going to war with at this late stage of the competition with 19 of us left but I had reasoned that I was fairly confdent that I was in front (I could just have easily been wrong and miles behind) but another factor to consider was that this was a golden opportunity to shoot into the top 2 or 3 with 18 players left and my startegy in all tournaments has always been to shoot for first place. By putting Josh all in with the check raise all I needed to be was pretty confident he didn't have a monstor or the flush draw and especially the nut flush draw as that would give him top pair and a flush draw and he would have to put me on a minimum of two pair or a set and lay down.I'm pretty sure that Josh was just as shocked to see my AJ as I was to see his 9hTh and the rest is history.Had the 6h not appeared on the river then none of what followed would ever have been discussed.The above is in no way an attempt by me to justify the way I played the hand. It is just an attempt to explain the thinking that went behind my decision to play it the way I did and what was going through my head. Many players whom I respect and whose opinions I value have come up to me and told me I played the hand like a complete idiot whilst others have praised me for my great play. Unfortunately nothing is ever clear cut and as I have said before you live and die by your decisions and to date I feel good about the fact that I have been proved right more times than wrong. You make your best guess and then you have to be prepared to follow through on that decision despite the fasct that sometimes you will be right and yet at other times be proved wrong.Perhaps after several long days of intense thinking and playing my judgement was clouded but such is life in poker and I will be back to fight another day.I think that in summary the points I am trying to make are that there are a number of things that have to be considered before making any play.You need to look at the stack sizes, the types of players involved and the previous hand histories between yourself and the other players and what each of you is thinking about each other.I am also a firm believer in shooting for the top prize and if it means that sometimes you will fall by the wayside then so be it. The prize money is in the top one or two spots but for me winning is everything and if I see an opportunity to get lots of chips I will invariably take it.On another day I could find myself in exactly the same or similar situation yet play the hand completely differently. Another player making that same play against me could cause me to fold but on this day I followed my instincts but lady luck deserted me at a critical time.I have tried to explain as best I can but it is not easy putting everything in writing especially as some months have now passed.However I do hope that some of you find this account of interest and realise that there is a lot more to the decision making process than you can deduce from seeing isolated hands on a tv screen.

[jedidiah1 0]

Wow thanks for that reply, pretty awesome that you take the time.