Herr Baader 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 What's the strategic advantage(s) of this move?I haven't seen a discussion of this in any of the "literature," incl. any forums.Is it a move made just to throw others off their game? Jim McManus has that famous WSOP quote about Ellix Powers "disrespecting the game" after his raising in the dark, but you see pros doing it all the time. Granted, Powers was acting like an ass in other ways, and his strategy here did seem to be just to get into other players' heads, but what situations might make this a +EV play? Is it a move any of you ever make? Link to post Share on other sites
Dhall901 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 What's the strategic advantage(s) of this move?I haven't seen a discussion of this in any of the "literature," incl. any forums.Is it a move made just to throw others off their game? Jim McManus has that famous WSOP quote about Ellix Powers "disrespecting the game" after his raising in the dark, but you see pros doing it all the time. Granted, Powers was acting like an ass in other ways, and his strategy here did seem to be just to get into other players' heads, but what situations might make this a +EV play? Is it a move any of you ever make?that's the whole point, I think it's a fun way to mix things up. You can do it with trash, or a monster. I tend to think it implies strength. Link to post Share on other sites
SapphireTiger 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 it's really not a +EV move to make. You're only doing it for the psychological advantages. It makes your opponent confused and it's a way to mix up your play. Really though, i think it should almost never be moved and it's often used too much.It's a much more logical and +EV move to just look at your hand. Link to post Share on other sites
princeof56k 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 These moves are pretty usless. Most of the time when I see them done at B&M casinos, the reaction is usally confusion since most people dont know you can do that or are falling asleep.I guess if someone is on tilt and complaining, it could help in pushing them over the edge. But I think the effect is so minor it really doesnt matter. Link to post Share on other sites
Stylin_Fish 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 I bet in the dark all the time, can someone tranfer me 10 dollars on Pokerstars? Link to post Share on other sites
blueodum 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 The main advantage to acting in the dark is that your opponent can't tell how the card that came affects your hand based on your bet or check (since you've bet or checked without knowing the card). I think it's a good tactic in some instances against opponents who are very good at reading you based not only on what you do (bet or check), but how you do it.The same thing is true when you are in the BB in an unraised pot. If you check in the dark, your opponents have no idea how the flop hit you. Link to post Share on other sites
troyomac 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 I bet in the dark all the time, can someone tranfer me 10 dollars on Pokerstars?only if your sister crashed the family station wagon, and you need the money to let your grandpa play Link to post Share on other sites
checkymcfold 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 betting/raising blind is odd.i often check blind, however, in live limit play, out of the blinds for the following reason:if there are no pf raises, and it checks around on the flop, a turn bet on the turn from a sb or bb that checked blind on the flop is seen as significantly more strong than it would be if the blind did not check blind on the flop, and you are much more likely to get folds on the turn that way.last night i won 4 pots with this play to the tune of over 200 dollars. if i did not check blind, i'm sure i would have gotten callers on my nothing at least a couple times.checking blind can be +ev, promise. Link to post Share on other sites
Stylin_Fish 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Not only do I dark bet but I make it the minimum in order to confuse my opponent,it also pisses them off Link to post Share on other sites
A_Bullets_A 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Sounds like most people think it's a bad idea to bet without looking at your cards. What about looking at what you have and then betting before the flop is dealt like daniel talked about in his last blog entry? Link to post Share on other sites
spikymarv99 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 I check in the blind more to gain info on another player's strength. How are they acting to your weird play? Did they hesitate when they checked or bet? It's just something else to use when you don't know where you are in the hand. Also, like others have said, the other player has no clue how the flop hit you. It could set up a nice bluffing op on the turn by leading out. I don't bet in the dark at all because I don't like having my money in without the proper info. Link to post Share on other sites
Herr Baader 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Author Share Posted November 5, 2005 Sounds like most people think it's a bad idea to bet without looking at your cards. What about looking at what you have and then betting before the flop is dealt like daniel talked about in his last blog entry?DN's blog entry was is what inspired me to post this question in the first place. (DN's play is definately a form of betting in the dark, bc he hasn't seen the flop yet - in fact that probaby the most common form of this play, at least as far as I've seen). It seems the kind of move that one either makes when they feel they are outclassed and need a kind of psychological slight-of-hand to throw their opponents off guard (ala Ellix Powers), or a play that experienced pros make against other experienced pros in order to put them off their usual game and usual reads. There's probably a third class as well, the guy who's seen it done on TV and thinks it's just a really badass move that would look super cool alongside his wraparound Oakleys. Link to post Share on other sites
gaddyjr 0 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 The main advantage to acting in the dark is that your opponent can't tell how the card that came affects your hand based on your bet or check (since you've bet or checked without knowing the card). I think it's a good tactic in some instances against opponents who are very good at reading you based not only on what you do (bet or check), but how you do it.The same thing is true when you are in the BB in an unraised pot. If you check in the dark, your opponents have no idea how the flop hit you.I agree. I will occasionally check in the dark before the flop when I am first to act and heads up against a pre-flop raiser. I am even more prone to do this if I am up against a skilled player. This way, my opponent has no chance to make a read or gauge strength/weakness from a check or bet. Checking dark can also serve to switch position. Generally, a pre-flop raiser will bet the flop when it is heads up. By checking dark, you get to act 2nd (assuming he bets). I have seen this play work well many times and believe it can be a + EV play.I don't see any advantage to betting dark. The people I typically see do that are either drunk or trying to mess with someones head. Link to post Share on other sites
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