Respect

[LeeDanger 0]

I consider myself the tightest player that I've ever seen in either live action or online poker. Yet, I find that when I raise preflop (which is rare) that almost everyone calls. This often frustrates me as my pocket aces usually get rundown by rags. I have come to two conclusions1) Some people feel that they can bluff me out of a pot because of my tight play.2) Players are getting worse and don't pay attention to raises or who makes the raise.I have found that my conclusion #2 seems to be more prevalent. I should be happy with this as it helps my bankroll in the long run but it makes me really mad on nights such as last night. I was just curious of how you guys play against a tighter player. Do you usually tighten up yourselves as you expect the player to have very good hands or do you loosen up as you feel you can take the pot easier. I'm finding that a lot of people are increasingly ignoring table image and are simply playing the cards.

[Cygnus 0]

I'm not sure what limit you are playing at, but one interesting phenom. of playing online, especially at low limits, is that most people see a pre-flop raise as an opportunity to make the "big score" and will play just about anything.All you can do is roll with it and make them pay for their draws, or limp and trap.

[bdluss 0]

If it was limit holdem, if the player is tight I would get the hell out of the pot. I dont want to try and run down and tight player when I can't break him. If this is a nl game I would approach it very different. I would try to take flops with low suited cards hoping to hit the right flop against your big pair and crack ya, knowing that you would struggle to laydown and overpair in alot of situations.

[LeeDanger 0]

Well the game I usually play (including last night) is a 10-20 hold'em game with a kill. I do try to make people pay for their draws. I'll share a hand with you guys last night. I am under the gun and I am dealt AK offsuit so I make it 20 (5-10 blinds). Guy in middle position calls. Another player in late position goes allin for 25. Button calls. 4 players in the pot, 3 live. Flop comes down 10 A 5 I check, next guy bets 10, button makes it 20, I make it 30. (Interesting sidenote: guy who is all in who is a regular along with myself mucks his hand and says I'm drawing dead I can't beat a set. Another regular sitting beside me says nice hand, go get em.) original bettor folds and button calls. Turn comes J I bet he calls, river comes down 2 I'm thinking, yes! there's my brick so I bet it. To my shock the button raises me! I'm thinking what can he have! He calls three preflop bets and a reraise on the flop! Is he slow playing a set? No, not him I'm thinking he bets all his (good) hands. I'm thinking 2 5 and almost muck my hand but I force myself into calling and he shows..... 3 4 for the bike!!! So very unsportsmanlike I throw my hand in disgust and hit the dealer as it bounces off the big pot in the middle (sorry grace).

[jayboogie 0]

if you only raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ, AK, then other players know what you have already when you raise. If you convey the image of being a tight player, others know what your holding. If I was in your pot and there were several callers, I might even re-raise in late position with 78 suited. This would be because I know what your holding already and if I get a chance to make my straight or flush, I'd be able to bust you especially if you were unwilling to fold top pair and top kicker. This would of course only be worth it if there were at least 4 players in the pot, otherwise I'd muck my 78suited. Now, in your example the player who won the pot is a terrible player who just got lucky, I mean drawing to gutshot and raising as well? please. This is just uncontrollable as some of these players think of poker as bingo and if they hit, they win big. You want to encourage this, but a couple of beats going against you can certainly put you on tilt real easy. I just had a losing session last nite getting AA cracked by 6-3 offsuit on several occassions. Being a tight player isn't neccessarily bad and it seems like you play aggressively, but I think you need to mix up your play. Just call with those premium hands once in a while, raise with a marginal hand. Don't appear tight and play tight or you'll become even easier to beat than the fish out there that will play any cards. Also factor this in when you play. It's called schooling, when a bunch of fish make bad calls, there is enough money in the pot to call their gutshot or open-ended straight draws. Of course when this happens, the chances of your AA, KK, QQ and etc holding up become much slimmer, because you are usually drawing to 2 outs and could be drawing dead, while the other players have many more outs than you.

[DangerusWitChips 0]

First, I will not come into a pot with a player like you unless i have position on you. Secondly, I will probably put you on a top ten hand and i will not call unless my hand has some or many possibilities. I won't call with 9 3 offsuit. In fact, i wont even call you much. I will make it 3 bets with J 10s, 67s, 10 8s and so on. I want it to be heads up against you and me. I do leave myself open for a re-raise, but that is ok. If its a NL game, ill probably just call to see a flop. It depends on the other players and my table image. And ill take it from there. Ill usually have a good idea what you have and my table image needs to be very agressive, with or without a hand (as it usually is). I might take a flop with suited connectors to see if i hit it right, cause if its NL, the implied odds are implying your whole stack. If its limit, i may assume to make a total of 5 big bets if i hit my hand right. If i dont, i can muck on the flop. But ill be pressuring you to find out if you have AA, KK, QQ, JJ or AK, AQ. If you have AK, AQ, ill know because itll be hard for you to play on against a blind hand. Ill know if you have any others as well. So it really depends on your post flop play, and decieving me. As far as other players, they may not take this all into consideration, so I can't help you there. But against tight players who only play top 10, if i can see a cheap 2 bet or single bet flop, ill be in there firing away. With or with out a hand. I love to semi-bluff tight players who realize that a lot of the time, the correct play is to fold; or just semibluff any tight player. Ill be applying a lot of pressure, and I know what your counter strategy is, so i wont play into your hands much either.

[LeeDanger 0]

if you only raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ, AK, then other players know what you have already when you raise.  If you convey the image of being a tight player, others know what your holding.  If I was in your pot and there were several callers, I might even re-raise in late position with 78 suited.  This would be because I know what your holding already and if I get a chance to make my straight or flush, I'd be able to bust you especially if you were unwilling to fold top pair and top kicker.  This would of course only be worth it if there were at least 4 players in the pot, otherwise I'd muck my 78suited.  Now, in your example the player who won the pot is a terrible player who just got lucky, I mean drawing to gutshot and raising as well? please.  This is just uncontrollable as some of these players think of poker as bingo and if they hit, they win big.  You want to encourage this, but a couple of beats going against you can certainly put you on tilt real easy.  I just had a losing session last nite getting AA cracked by 6-3 offsuit on several occassions.  Being a tight player isn't neccessarily bad and it seems like you play aggressively, but I think you need to mix up your play.  Just call with those premium hands once in a while, raise with a marginal hand.  Don't appear tight and play tight or you'll become even easier to beat than the fish out there that will play any cards.  Also factor this in when you play.  It's called schooling, when a bunch of fish make bad calls, there is enough money in the pot to call their gutshot or open-ended straight draws.  Of course when this happens, the chances of your AA, KK, QQ and etc holding up become much slimmer, because you are usually drawing to 2 outs and could be drawing dead, while the other players have many more outs than you.

I totally agree with what you're saying. Especially the part about mixing up my play. There is one important counter argument that I am going to make. Last night was Saturday and people go to the casino to have fun and drink, so generally players see a lot more flops. This means that most pots are at least $100. Some even venture into the $500-$700 range with the kill making it a 20-40 game. For this reason I play extremely tight because I know that people aren't playing table image for several reasons.1) most important: They are drunk2) They don't care, it's a social thing play a lot of flops3) They don't consider table image and will simply play their cardsFor all these reasons I play really tight on nights like that knowing that I will win in the long run and can easily take big pots with premium hands because the fishes will swim and drown in the river. However, it is frustrating to leave the casino down $400 after looking back at the table and seeing the skill level of the players. With the incredible increase of popularity in poker over the last several years I really believe that the skill level has gone down considerably especially at the casino where I play and for this I am happy but I just don't like the crapshoots and the volatility in my winnings or losses.

[goofyortiz 0]

i really think the only way you can play against the type of people you play against is really tight. bad beats happen and so do bad nights, but that doesnt mean you wont win in the long run. let the guy with the 3-4 call you til the end. i play in a 50 min pot limit omaha/hold em game. its the same way with me. i play really tight, and i get paid off especially in omaha. sometimes a really good player with a big stack can take advantage of my predictability, but i will still take the fish's money.

[LeeDanger 0]

i really think the only way you can play against the type of people you play against is really tight.  bad beats happen and so do bad nights, but that doesnt mean you wont win in the long run.  let the guy with the 3-4 call you til the end.  i play in a 50 min pot limit omaha/hold em game.  its the same way with me.  i play really tight, and i get paid off especially in omaha.  sometimes a really good player with a big stack can take advantage of my predictability, but i will still take the fish's money.

Were we separated at birth?

[jayboogie 0]

if you only raise with hands like AA, KK, QQ, AK, then other players know what you have already when you raise.  If you convey the image of being a tight player, others know what your holding.  If I was in your pot and there were several callers, I might even re-raise in late position with 78 suited.  This would be because I know what your holding already and if I get a chance to make my straight or flush, I'd be able to bust you especially if you were unwilling to fold top pair and top kicker.  This would of course only be worth it if there were at least 4 players in the pot, otherwise I'd muck my 78suited.  Now, in your example the player who won the pot is a terrible player who just got lucky, I mean drawing to gutshot and raising as well? please.  This is just uncontrollable as some of these players think of poker as bingo and if they hit, they win big.  You want to encourage this, but a couple of beats going against you can certainly put you on tilt real easy.  I just had a losing session last nite getting AA cracked by 6-3 offsuit on several occassions.  Being a tight player isn't neccessarily bad and it seems like you play aggressively, but I think you need to mix up your play.  Just call with those premium hands once in a while, raise with a marginal hand.  Don't appear tight and play tight or you'll become even easier to beat than the fish out there that will play any cards.  Also factor this in when you play.  It's called schooling, when a bunch of fish make bad calls, there is enough money in the pot to call their gutshot or open-ended straight draws.  Of course when this happens, the chances of your AA, KK, QQ and etc holding up become much slimmer, because you are usually drawing to 2 outs and could be drawing dead, while the other players have many more outs than you.

I totally agree with what you're saying. Especially the part about mixing up my play. There is one important counter argument that I am going to make. Last night was Saturday and people go to the casino to have fun and drink, so generally players see a lot more flops. This means that most pots are at least $100. Some even venture into the $500-$700 range with the kill making it a 20-40 game. For this reason I play extremely tight because I know that people aren't playing table image for several reasons.1) most important: They are drunk2) They don't care, it's a social thing play a lot of flops3) They don't consider table image and will simply play their cardsFor all these reasons I play really tight on nights like that knowing that I will win in the long run and can easily take big pots with premium hands because the fishes will swim and drown in the river. However, it is frustrating to leave the casino down $400 after looking back at the table and seeing the skill level of the players. With the incredible increase of popularity in poker over the last several years I really believe that the skill level has gone down considerably especially at the casino where I play and for this I am happy but I just don't like the crapshoots and the volatility in my winnings or losses.

I know what your saying, it ticked me off losing money last nite to players that treat poker like bingo. Like I said before, schooling is a big part of these loose games and it's hard to beat it sometimes when your cards don't hit. To beat these games, your cards need to hit, it's pointless bluffing because you will get called down by anybody hitting a pair on the board. One important thing to do is to just use simple strategy, a lot of check raising to get a lot of money in the pot when you have a hand. I find check raising is the most important thing to do in a loose game against bad players. If you bet out, your likely to be called and it would have costed them 1 bet to call to try and draw to their hand, now if you make it 2 bets or more to go, your making it cost them a lot more to chase it down. even if you lose hands being outdrawn, the payoff when you do win the pot outweighs it. Get your money in when you have the best of it and jam that pot up when you have the goods. Simply betting out won't get people to fold, check-raising is a better way to protect your hand in a loose game. Typically what I like to do is in a loose game, just calling with Q's. If the board hits undercards, I will typically check-raise on the flop. This will usually kick out some of the players hoping to hit miracle cards, but not the players that have some type of draw to win the pot. If another card comes up where I don't think my opponents have hit, I will check-raise again. Then on the river I'll bet out if I feel I've got the best hand. What's important to note is that betting out doesn't show much strength in a limit game against loose players, but check-raising certainly does. You'll be surprised how many pots you take down by doing this, because very often you'll get called by middle pair or bottom pair trying to hit a miracle turn or river card for a set. Usually opponents think you were just bluffing when you check the turn after check-raising on the flop, so they will bet out.I'd agree that the skill level of poker among most players has declined, because most watch it on TV and feel they can play the game, as long as they know the rules, they feel they can. What I find is that in these games, you will lose money some days because simply your cards won't hit, but you will have huge huge sessions when your cards do hit. The variance is greater in these games, because of the amount of players, but results are to be measured over a long period of time, not short. In games against these fish, I like to not raise at all most of the time even when I get my rockets. Why? because I'll get callers anyways and your raising won't limit the field anyways. I like to encourage more players in my pots when I have the best cards. Of course, I will raise from time to time to mix it up and for me it depends more on positioning whether I raise or not. Also, most people feel that that AA's play best against a small amount of people, but I feel that it's actually better with more players. First of all, you have the best hand, so you want more players against your hand. If you don't raise, and a A hits the board, there's no way they can put you on AA. When you play against bad players, they're only aware of their own hand and what cards they've hit, so you'll get bet into if they hit bottom 2 pair, 2 pair or whatever. I think you make more money longterm with Aces against a large field, even though it seems like they get cracked everytime.

[LeeDanger 0]

I do the check raise all the time, unless there is a draw that couldve been hit already, that way you can find out whether or not someone has hit or not. I often limp with my monsters occasionally as well, especially aces. About a month ago I did it and the one player was shocked when he saw my hand. The flop put an A on the board and I slow played my set until the turn when the stakes went up and made a lot of money because it turned out that the other player had A9 and said that a raise would've made him fold preflop and everytime he was in a pot with me the rest of the night he had no idea what I had. Later that night I did the same thing and tried slowplaying my bullets on the flop but it ended up being a check round, the turn came another Q and I checked raised one of the other regulars who plays there a lot and he just called saying that he didn't like his kicker. Lucky for him he checked the river after I checked saving me a call. Turns out he had K Q and was worried about me having AQ. So I guess I do get respect from certain players but not the "tourists" who come in off the street and sit down and don't pay attention to other players at the table.