Wierd B&m Tourny Ruling

[KoRnholio 2]

Here's the scenario: $55+5 live MTT at a local B&M casino. Actions as follows..Blinds 50/100, UTG+1 raises to 250, Villain reraises to 600, I am on the button with KK and pop it up to 1500. Dealer declares my raise as a "cap" and does not allow Villain to reraise all in. Most of the players at the table try to tell the floorman that in no-limit as long as you have chips to raise, there is no limit to the number of raises in a given round. The floorman says that the rule is that unless it is heads up on the river, there can be no more than 4 raises on the same round. I've never seen this fixed limit rule applied to no limit before, so I just wanted to see if anyone else had encountered this.FYI the flop came QT3 rainbow, he checked, I pushed, he called with aces and I sucked out with a K on the turn. Looking back I suppose I could have looked to check it down since it was very likely that he had AA (or QQ). But this guy had previously pushed his ~4000 chip stack in from early position with 25/50 blinds, so I figured he was a donkey with AK/AQ in this spot.

[Naslund44 0]

wierd....

[IQCrash 1]

Worst thinly veiled brag post ever.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

My local casino considers 4 raises a cap--at least for their NLHE tourneys. It's in the rules sheet they hand out before each tournament.25/50 blinds, I raise to 150, you raise to 300, I raise to 450, you raise to 600; it's capped.Not sure about anywhere else, but, I've heard of it before, at least.

[RatPackCpt 0]

I personally think that is a terrible rule, and I think many would agree. I don't know where your local rooms are but I've never heard of a cap in a NL game. I've been to many rooms in southern california and have never seen such a thing. Weird.

[lacilobaid 0]

Pooker room in AC for their NL cash games you have a 3 raise max (4 bets total), unless its heads up. Cash game it would seem to make more sense to have this ruling, not sure if its the same for their tournaments in the same card room.

[crazykid13 0]

I know Perry Friedman and others had an issue with this last year...it may have been at the US Poker Championship...I don't recall offhand. There was a big problem with it..I don't believe they changed it. I remember several pros were upset with the ruling...that's all the incite I have tonight.Now if this freeroll could end so I can get some sleep...that would be fantastic.

[13CARDS 0]

NO LIMIT

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

NO LIMIT

ON THE SIZE OF AN INDIVIDUAL BET

[13CARDS 0]

I raise to 150, you raise to 300, I raise to 450, you raise to 600; it's capped.

Seems like you were confused and were playing a Limit tourney...if you are going to raise then RAISE!!!There is no reasonable explaination for a NLHE game (tourney or cash) to restrict the number of raises...it simply does not make any sense!

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

It actually makes a good deal of sense. LHE, NLHE and PLHE are all, theoretically the same game--the only thing that changes is the maximum bet, not the number of bets allowed on each street.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Seems like you were confused and were playing a Limit tourney...if you are going to raise then RAISE!!!There is no reasonable explaination for a NLHE game (tourney or cash) to restrict the number of raises...it simply does not make any sense!

In my example, we weren't playing Limit. If it were limit, I wouldn't have raised from 50 to 150. And the minimum raise from there would've been to 250..but you knew that.Read my post directly above this if it doesn't make sense to you.And yes, really, there is a reason. Two drunks get HU with 500 dollar stacks in a 2/5 NL game.Drunk A bets 5, Drunk B raises to 10, Drunk A raises to 15, Drunk B raises to 20, Drunk A raises to 25, Drunk B raises to 30, Drunk A raises to 35..There's plenty of reason for it.

[13CARDS 0]

It actually makes a good deal of sense. LHE, NLHE and PLHE are all, theoretically the same game--the only thing that changes is the maximum bet, not the number of bets allowed on each street.

The "limit" to a Limit game restricts the amount of money that can go in on each street. This is removed once it is Heads-Up (as the risk of colusion is now gone!). However, since in NLHE anyone can bet all of their money at anytime, to restrict the number of raises on a given street is moot.Did your tourney remove "the cap" once it was heads-up?? Why???

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

The "limit" to a Limit game restricts the amount of money that can go in on each street. This is removed once it is Heads-Up (as the risk of colusion is now gone!). However, since in NLHE anyone can bet all of their money at anytime, to restrict the number of raises on a given street is moot.Did your tourney remove "the cap" once it was heads-up?? Why???

You're a floorman, right? The rule's pretty clear for Hold 'Em. There's a maximum of 4 bets on every street. In Limit, they're fixed to a certain amount(the table stakes), in Pot Limit Hold 'Em, they're fixed to the size of the pot, in NLHE, they're fixed to 4 bets that don't put one or both players all in. Why is this confusing?As for "did they remove the rule?", I don't know, as far as NLHE tourneys. I know that in their LHE games, it was still 'capped' to 4 bets, HU.

[jooka 0]

My local casino considers 4 raises a cap--at least for their NLHE tourneys. It's in the rules sheet they hand out before each tournament.25/50 blinds, I raise to 150, you raise to 300, I raise to 450, you raise to 600; it's capped.Not sure about anywhere else, but, I've heard of it before, at least.

that is ****ed up. Ive never heard nor seen anything like this.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

that is ****ed up.

Meh, but realistically, how often do you see a hand get 3-bet on any street in NLHE, let alone 4 or 5 bet?

[rogerwilco 0]

The rule's pretty clear for Hold 'Em. There's a maximum of 4 bets on every street. In Limit, they're fixed to a certain amount(the table stakes), in Pot Limit Hold 'Em, they're fixed to the size of the pot, in NLHE, they're fixed to 4 bets that don't put one or both players all in.

I have never heard that that is a standard rule before, I just know it from LHE as well. (and I'm pretty sure, although not positive, that online this rule doesn't exist)

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I have never heard that that is a standard rule before, I just know it from LHE as well. (and I'm pretty sure, although not positive, that online this rule doesn't exist)

I don't know that it's standard, but, it certainly makes sense. If I was playing a NLHE cash game and two dudes decided to min-raise 200 bb stacks in, I'd be pretty irate, though. I'm sure you could get away with it most places, putting a 5th raise in..and realistically it's very rarely going to be an issue unless stacks are extremely deep and the players are making exceptionally small raises. I don't necessarily like, or agree with the rule, but, it makes sense. Hold 'Em is Hold 'Em is Hold 'Em. It's limit because of the size of the bets, not because of the number of bets on each street. So why would the number of bets on each street change, just because you can make the size of the bets bigger?

[13CARDS 0]

You're a floorman, right?

Yes, I am."The rule's pretty clear for Hold 'Em. There's a maximum of 4 bets on every street."Where do you get this from?"In Limit, they're fixed to a certain amount(the table stakes),..."Actually, the term "table stakes" refers to the fact that you cannot wager/win/lose other than what you have on the table at the start of the hand. Limit games refer to the structure of the bets (ie: 2-5 limit restricts bets on the first two rounds to multiples of 2 and multiples of 5 on the last two streets)."...in Pot Limit Hold 'Em, they're fixed to the size of the pot,..."Yes/No.....the maximum bet is the size of the pot (which may or may not include the bets and calls on that street, depending on the house rules). It in NO WAY restricts the number of times players may pot/re-pot each other."...in NLHE, they're fixed to 4 bets that don't put one or both players all in."I have NEVER seen this rule written down anywhere (it certainly is NOT at NFCR!) nor have I seen it enforced anywhere. Can you please provide documentation for your assertion??"Why is this confusing?"Exactly what I was thinking......"As for "did they remove the rule?", I don't know, as far as NLHE tourneys. I know that in their LHE games, it was still 'capped' to 4 bets, HU."I am not sure where you are playing but maybe you should speak with someone regarding their rules.1. NLHE there is no need for a "cap".2. In LHE, there is no need for a cap once it is heads-up as there is no chance for collusion.Are you a floorman or a player that thinks he/she knows all of the answers?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Lotsa conjecture.

You're missing a key point here. Limit hold 'em refers to the LIMIT on the BET size on each particular street. It doesn't refer to a limit on the number of bets allowed on each street, otherwise, when HU, they could still only put 4(or 5) bets in, right? With your reasoning, it's called "No Limit" HE, because there's "no limit" on the number of bets that can be made on each street...and it's Pot-Limit hold 'em because, you can bet, as many times as, the pot? I dunno about that one.This isn't the first time you've been completely offtrack about a rule.

[13CARDS 0]

This isn't the first time you've been completely offtrack about a rule.

Please point out another rule I have been "offtrack" about....And please re-read my posts with a clear and open mind. All will become crystal clear as to why your reasoning/arguments are absolutely pointless.NLHE is no limit which means you can bet as much as you want at anytime (up to your total in front of you, the "table stakes" rule you seem confused about). If I can bet all of my money, at one time, or upon a raise/re-raise/re-reraise, what would limiting the number of raises accomplish? Your argument about "2 drunk dudes" applies to limit as well (I have seen $380 go in on 5th street on a 2-5 LHE table from raises/re-raises when it is Heads-Up. If the concern was your valuable time as a 3rd party player, why would this be universally allowed?I do believe you have missed all of the "key points". But that is just my opinion. And rogerwilco.... And jooka.... Etc....

[dingas 0]

Umm. . UTG raised to 150, next player to act raised to 600, you raised to 1200, that makes only 3 raises, so even if this 4 raises rule was in effect, why couldn't UTG re-raise all in??

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I do believe you have missed all of the "key points". But that is just my opinion. And rogerwilco.... And jooka.... Etc....

And what about the fella who said this is the same rule in Atlantic City? I trust the floorpersons in AC much more than I do some backwater Canadian chip runner.My contention is, and will remain, until you give me a definitive reason as to why I'm wrong, that Hold 'em is the same game whether it's LHE, NLHE, or PLHE, the only difference is the SIZE of the bets on each street, not the number of bets on each street.BTW, I misspoke when I said 'table stakes', when referencing '3/6'. I certainly am not confused by the idea of them, thanks.

[Pupsta 0]

just asked my buddy, who works floor at a casino here in vegas, and he said he's fairly sure there's no cap but that he's not 100% sure since the situation has never really come up, so he's going to ask his boss and i'll relay the info whenever i get it

[13CARDS 0]

And what about the fella who said this is the same rule in Atlantic City? I trust the floorpersons in AC much more than I do some backwater Canadian chip runner.

I am not a chip runner. I see the concept of "floorman" is difficult for you to grasp as well.As for (many posters both here and anywhere else on the world Wide Webby thingy, that are players that think they know more than experienced staff) there are plenty of "fellas" that think they understand the rules where they play but they really do not OR the staff at their room really do not understand/enforce the rules of their respective rooms.

My contention is, and will remain, until you give me a definitive reason as to why I'm wrong, that Hold 'em is the same game whether it's LHE, NLHE, or PLHE, the only difference is the SIZE of the bets on each street, not the number of bets on each street.

Um.... check each and every post I have made in this thread. I do believe I have included all of your requested information. However, I do see a glaring lack of substantial defense information from you. Thanks!

BTW, I misspoke when I said 'table stakes', when referencing '3/6'. I certainly am not confused by the idea of them, thanks.

Your Welcome. It greatly reduces your argument when you include a reference which, to me, supports my label of "a player that thinks he/she know more" than you actually do.