Back On The 5/10 Horse

[Acid_Knight 2]

So, I had my first session back at 5/10 NL at the Bellagio in like 3 months on Friday night. I was trying to think of hands to post for you guys, but very few seemed worth mentioning. This one was probably the most noteworthy.The villains in this hand are mostly unknown since I sat down only a short while ago and haven't really done anything to be noticed yet. The one thing that I do feel about MP3 is that he's just a horrible player and very passive. This would be confirmed later in the night as I logged more hours but, for this hand, is mostly irrelevant becuase he's not the major player in the hand.The CO is a player who is getting ready to get up (after this hand in fact) and go play in the $1000 daily tournament.I have like $1200 in MP1 with 55 (suits irrelevant)MP3 has $1000CO has $1100I open limp, MP3 limps, CO raises to $30, BB calls, I call and MP3 calls.Flop - 4 Players - $125K T 5 rainbowBB checks, I lead for $90, MP3 calls, CO calls and BB folds.Turn - 3 Players - $3959 completes rainbow boardI lead for $250, MP3 calls and the CO calls.River - 3 Players - $11453 (Final Board: KT593 rainbow)I decide to check, MP3 checks and the CO thinks for a bit then goes all-in for ~$700.Hero?

[bdc30 0]

First instinct is to call, but man..what does he make this move here with that you beat?It has to almost be TOTAL air, and I just don't get that feeling.TT KK and JQ are all plausible here imo.

[simo_8ball 0]

I don't hate the open limp, depending on the table. I usually prefer raise/fold first in, but there are exceptions.I don't like your flop lead. I think you are likely to get called by wide range of hands there.I cannot see how betting the turn is anything but spewing. The most likely (only) draw just hit, and you had two callers on the flop. Just let it go.The river is very difficult without a read. I probably sigh and pay it off, but I'm a POW.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I'm sure when you decided to check the river you did so with a reason and a plan.Do we think maybe MP3 has a straight? Surely he's not checking the nuts on the river, though. I call.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I'm sure when you decided to check the river you did so with a reason and a plan.

Yeah, see what everyone else did. I really had no clue what the CO held, so I figured that checking was the best option so that I could re-evaluate after seeing his river action.

Do we think maybe MP3 has a straight? Surely he's not checking the nuts on the river, though.

I really thought if MP3 had a straight then I'd have been raised on the turn. His range probably included any Kx, AQ, QT and all hands like that. He really was retarded but I was never really considering that he had me beaten the way this hand played out.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I don't like your flop lead. I think you are likely to get called by wide range of hands there.I cannot see how betting the turn is anything but spewing. The most likely (only) draw just hit, and you had two callers on the flop. Just let it go.

I lead the flop with a variety of hands and I do it fairly often. In this case, I think it's a good play because I potentially trap the calling station MP3 in between myself and the PFR for a bet and then I get to reraise after there's more money in the pot.What line would you take on the turn? I think that against a passive opponent and a random hand (CO) that a bet-fold line (which is what this was) is the best line to take here. I think that check-folding or check-calling (and hoping to fill up) are considerably worse lines to take becuase you really gain no information except that you gave up the lead and someone else has now taken it with a hand that you know very little about.I think that if I check the turn, most observant players are betting like 90% of the time with or without the straight which would put me in a horrible position.

[Naismith 0]

Glad to see those little + signs by your results.I call here and hope MP3 calls as well. I don't expect to win this all the time, but I think if we're beat, we're beat by a slowplayed KK from the CO. I think the majority of time, we scoop this pot, though. I just have a hard time putting the CO on QJ with his small preflop raise. I think AQ is more likely.

[simo_8ball 0]

Man, I absolutely suck at reading comprehension. I thought you had 33. Go figure.I like how you played it. I make a crying call on the river.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Yeah, see what everyone else did. I really had no clue what the CO held, so I figured that checking was the best option so that I could re-evaluate after seeing his river action.

In that case, I think we have to fold. If before the river, we feel we have MP3 but we're concerned about a possible overset from the cut-off, then check/call isn't as good as bet/call. I say call originally because I don't feel that a push from the cutoff really tells me I'm beat here. I really thought you were trying to extract information about MP3's hand.

[tskillz187 0]

The fact that CO is getting up and willingly pushed all in on the river seems like a huge sign of strength. I wouldn't be surprised for him to show up with JQ, KK, or 1010. By the time it checks to him on the river he can be fairly confident that his KK and 1010 are good because no one is checking the straight to him on the river.

[Acid_Knight 2]

What does everyone think of the CO taking a line like this with KK or TT? Wouldn't it be kind of dangerous (and stupid) not to raise the flop with 2 customers already? I mean, he doesn't even really need to "protect" his hand as much as he should be raising for value there. I feel that the same analysis applies on the turn if he did have the straight. Wouldn't he want to put in a small raise to get some more value for his hand?

[tskillz187 0]

What does everyone think of the CO taking a line like this with KK or TT? Wouldn't it be kind of dangerous (and stupid) not to raise the flop with 2 customers already? I mean, he doesn't even really need to "protect" his hand as much as he should be raising for value there. I feel that the same analysis applies on the turn if he did have the straight. Wouldn't he want to put in a small raise to get some more value for his hand?

Definitely but I think when players are leaving they are more concerned about not losing than extracting maximum value. I don't know if I'd muck in real time just because I'd think they only hand that beats me has JQ and it hasn't played out too JQish, but I think 1010 and KK are in his range now that I look at it given his coming departure.

[simo_8ball 0]

I think when players are leaving they are more concerned about not losing than extracting maximum value.

I actually think it can do strange things to people. Rather than take away $700, he has a chance to walk away with over $1800. This pot pays for his tournament.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Definitely but I think when players are leaving they are more concerned about not losing than extracting maximum value. I don't know if I'd muck in real time just because I'd think they only hand that beats me has JQ and it hasn't played out too JQish, but I think 1010 and KK are in his range now that I look at it given his coming departure.

If he's concerned more about "not losing" then why is he pushing the river here without QJ? Why would he not raise the turn with QJ?I think that if he had KK, TT or QJ (obviously the only 3 hands that I think he can hold to beat me) then he played it really weird. If he had any other hand like AK, KT, QQ, AQ (thanks Naismith) or anything else, he also played it really weird, especially pushing the river.

[David_Nicoson 1]

If he's concerned more about "not losing" then why is he pushing the river here without QJ? Why would he not raise the turn with QJ?I think that if he had KK, TT or QJ (obviously the only 3 hands that I think he can hold to beat me) then he played it really weird. If he had any other hand like AK, KT, QQ, AQ (thanks Naismith) or anything else, he also played it really weird, especially pushing the river.

He might have been convinced that he was ahead by the two river checks. He flat calls the flop with AK or KQ so he doesn't scare off a worse king. "Oh crap, the straight got there. Better just call." River bricks. "WTF? They all checked. This hand must be good. I can't bet/fold for my stack size, so I might as well make this look like a bluff and see if the hero makes a call with KJ."

[tskillz187 0]

If he's concerned more about "not losing" then why is he pushing the river here without QJ? Why would he not raise the turn with QJ?I think that if he had KK, TT or QJ (obviously the only 3 hands that I think he can hold to beat me) then he played it really weird. If he had any other hand like AK, KT, QQ, AQ (thanks Naismith) or anything else, he also played it really weird, especially pushing the river.

I think of the other hands you listed the only one that he might push the river with is AQ. If he had the others he wasn't drawing and thought that they were good and should go to showdown with his hand because he is not getting called by worse hands if he shoves with the others.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I think of the other hands you listed the only one that he might push the river with is AQ. If he had the others he wasn't drawing and thought that they were good and should go to showdown with his hand because he is not getting called by worse hands if he shoves with the others.

Calling the turn with a gut-shot is pretty loose. Bluffing the river makes some sense, but I can't see getting there with that hand.

[dms26 3]

3 (Final Board: KT593 rainbow)I decide to check, MP3 checks and the CO thinks for a bit then goes all-in for ~$700.Hero?

I think you checked giving CO a chance to bluff or value bet his K, I don't really see how you can fold. You can't be worried about MP3 behind you, he would have bet if he had you beat. If CO is anywhere near competent he's not flat calling the turn with QJ with two other people in the pot. Even a passive player should be raising with the nuts. This just seems too much like a good king that was scared to raise but now thinks his hand might be good.

[tskillz187 0]

Calling the turn with a gut-shot is pretty loose. Bluffing the river makes some sense, but I can't see getting there with that hand.

LOL. Well I could justify me getting there with AQ and shoving more often than doing the other things. I think this looks more like KK and 1010 than anything else, he might have been looking to trap with KK saw the 9 turn and it scared him because MP3 flat calls again, then once he is checked to on river he is sure once again that his hand is best.I can justify that and AQ hoping for big implied odds over pushing one pair hands on the river here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Usually if you see the cards in a situation like this where he bets the river, it's one of 2 types of hands, the nuts or nothing.The only hands that I see making this bet are hands that he knows are almost certain to be winning (KK, TT, QJ) or hands that have no chance of winning (use your imagination here). It seems to be suicidal to value-push a hand like AK or something here. Maybe KT? Wouldn't he have raised somewhere?The problem with him having air was that he overcalled bets on the flop AND turn.I guess this hand is more interesting than I thought.

[Acid_Knight 2]

he might have been looking to trap with KK saw the 9 turn and it scared him because MP3 flat calls again

I'm surprised it took someone this many posts to make this point.

[dms26 3]

I think this looks more like KK and 1010 than anything else, he might have been looking to trap with KK saw the 9 turn and it scared him because MP3 flat calls again, then once he is checked to on river he is sure once again that his hand is best.

that's a really strange preflop raise with KK, you know anyone already in the pot is going to call and you're inviting the blinds to call with any decent hand also. TT seems more likely as it builds a pot if you do hit the set, but that's a risky raise to make with KK unless you are willing to fold it pretty easily.

[tskillz187 0]

Usually if you see the cards in a situation like this where he bets the river, it's one of 2 types of hands, the nuts or nothing.The only hands that I see making this bet are hands that he knows are almost certain to be winning (KK, TT, QJ) or hands that have no chance of winning (use your imagination here). It seems to be suicidal to value-push a hand like AK or something here. Maybe KT? Wouldn't he have raised somewhere?The problem with him having air was that he overcalled bets on the flop AND turn.I guess this hand is more interesting than I thought.

We're on the exact same page here and the only "Air" I think he can get to the river with is AQ. I just think its much more likely he has one of the three "nut" hands.

[tskillz187 0]

that's a really strange preflop raise with KK, you know anyone already in the pot is going to call and you're inviting the blinds to call with any decent hand also. TT seems more likely as it builds a pot if you do hit the set, but that's a risky raise to make with KK unless you are willing to fold it pretty easily.

I agree that it is small/weak raise with KK but from the rest of the action it looks more like KK (QJ or 1010) than other hands, IMO. I'll take into account the weird PF raise but put much, much more weight on the flop, turn, and river action.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Let's add another wrinkle to this. So, the OP started with all of the initial information that I had to make my decision.When it was his turn to act on the river, he took his time and then after about 30 seconds or so (and asking how much I had left in my stack), he pushed all in.He seemed very calm and unaffected by the situation.While I was thinking, he said something, but not loud enough for me to hear. I asked him what he said and he commented "I got lucky."I kept thinking about that comment and about how he didn't seem nervous at all. He looked me in the eyes, smiled naturally and generally did everything to tell me that he was comfortable with the situation.Then he said something else, again too softly for me to hear. I asked him what he said and he said "I'll show you the hand either way"Those 2 comments were unprovoked and he sounded totally calm when he said them. There is a lot to learn from each of them and between them, you should have all of the information you now need to make the correct decision in the hand.