me, them, turn play..........

[firstyearclay 0]

This is one of those hands that makes people question whether they even know how to play this game. I have been in discussion with a friend for about 30 minutes and am using every possible avenue to determine where I went wrong?? I know I haven't posted much on here but, I respect some of the posters that I have read over the last 6 months (AKi and SuitedUp!!) and would appreciate any and ALL comments, suggestions, and ideas from all levels of play.SB ($258.85)BB ($272.45) Loose likes to see flops and bets into most flops. LAGUTG ($219.90)UTG+1 ($211.90) The word donkey fits instead of UTG+1, dream to be at anyones table. MP1 ($107.50) no real read so far fairly new at the table. Hero ($111.20) MP3 ($220.40)CO ($135.65)Button ($46.10)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9:spade:, 9:diamond:1 fold, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 calls $2, Hero calls $2, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.Okay medium pair in position; was limping a mistake to start.... hmmm....Flop: ($10) 7:diamond:, A:club:, 9:club: (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $8, Nice, middle set. I will raise to clear the field to go heads up with the flush draw. Hero raises to $16, SB calls $16, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $16, MP1 calls $8.ALL CALL WTF!!!Turn: ($74) 5:club: GREAT!!(4 players)SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero ????.Okay club comes. I want to put down the hero's play, but since this is the most crucial part of the hand, this is where I am looking for advice/suggestions. Results to follow, as this hand will get more interesting on 5th.

[Smasharoo 0]

1. Move in on the flop.2. Since you didn't check behind.3. Is this a joke? What's hard about the turn play here?You understand that your min raise on the flop blows donkey, right? If you're not going to move in there (which you clearly should) you have to *at least* raise enough so that 8T and flush draws shouldn't call. You didn't.Good luck.Grats on hitting the FH on the river. Play it right next time.

[firstyearclay 0]

Smash, Notice how I didn't include you in as one of the posters I respect; however, I am glad you replied first. 1, move in on the flop??? Why??? Do you make money when you play??? If I am wrong in challenging you, then justify the move in at this point... 3. The turn card brought the flush against three opponents, so it is obviously out there. What is the joke, the check, not betting?? What exactly are you saying???? Who bets $8 and cold calls $16 without having SOME legitimate draw???? I want to respect your opinion, but "Move all in on the flop and then just trash talk" defeats the purpose of this thread.Finally, your final sentence.......well you will find out later. Be constructive, dont be condescending. Thanks for your input though!!first

[Smasharoo 0]

Notice how I didn't include you in as one of the posters I respectK.Wait for someone else to tell you to move in on the flop here.If you don't understand why you should stop playing NL immediately.Good luck.

[firstyearclay 0]

$16 pot move in for $100Explain to me how this makes sense?I have middle set and two donkeys in the pot, why and I moving in for an 8 bb win?Tell me why you think this is the correct play. You make yourself look stupid with trying to make others feel stupid with your assumption of all world NL knowledge. Back your words up for once. Why move in for $100 for a $16 win.Why?

[Smasharoo 0]

You make yourself look stupid with trying to make others feel stupid with your assumption of all world NL knowledge.You're right, I'm just terrible at NL.Thanks for playing.We have some lovely parting gifts for you, like never being a winning player.Take care.

[firstyearclay 0]

great reply...........thanks for the input!!!Next!!!

[looshle 6]

I have middle set and two donkeys in the pot, why and I moving in for an 8 bb win?Tell me why you think this is the correct play.It makes more sense than min raising a coordinated board like this.Nice, middle set. I will raise to clear the field to go heads up with the flush draw.Min raising doesnt do this. Protect your hand!!! Alot of people will not fold a flush draw so get your money in. You may not have to go all in but at least a healthy amount, at least make it 35-40. Pushing isn't even that bad either. You'd be suprised what people will call you down with. It;s sure as hell a much better move than min-raising.

[econ_tim 0]

ALL CALL WTF!!!

If they had any draw or made hand they would be retarded not to call your little raise.

[BeanGW 0]

Just listen to Smash. It's generally a +EV decision. And you shouldn't say you welcome all advice, and then throw a hissy fit because you don't get a "NICE HAND." You played this one incorrectly, be openminded and maybe you'll learn something. As the others have said, a bigger raise (or in this case a push) on the flop is necessary to push out the draws. This is NL, so for the villains to call a min raise when they may have the opportunity to wipe out another player on a future street when their flush hits, makes complete sense.In your example, you then should check behind on the turn because it is very possibile against this many villains that one of them has just made their flush and is trying to trap you. By checking, you get to see a river card that could give you the Full Boat, rather than putting additional money in the pot, unnecessarily, when you could be behind. Besides, If you were going to bet, you would need to make a reasonable bet at this point (say at least 40-50 into the 75 dollar pot?) That would basically commit you to this hand (having put 60% of your chips in play, and you would then be forced to call a check-raise that would pull you all in. Or, if just called, you would be forced to call a bet on the river. By just checking, you still can get away from this hand if one of the villains makes a big overbet on the river if you believe you are behind.

[custom36 4]

ALL CALL WTF!!!

Yeah, what the hell's their problem? I hate it when people pay off my set. WHY MUST THEY DO THAT?!? Why can't they just FOLD?!?I knew this thread would be trouble when I saw, "...Daniel please help," and "...those I respect (Aki, Suited Up!!!)." Don't get me wrong, Aseem and Kurt are great guys, but the fact that you don't respect most of the people in this forum really speaks to what kind of person (and player) you actually are.

[Big Game Frank 0]

Hi all,Interesting hand....The issue with this hand is you want to build a pot while not allowing flush draws to draw profitably... You have flopped a big hand and any non-flush draw is drawing very thin.... You WANT the non-flush draws to CALL... by min-raising, you are enticing anyone with A9 or A7 or 777 to make a big raise.... Then you can move all-in.... This is the positive when you flop a big hand like this....Going all-in on the flop is playing scared... If a flush card comes, it will be staring you in the face and you have position... You can get away from i t if you want.... Overbetting the pot to chase away a draw is not how you win at poker. Isn't the purpose of poker to make others play improperly? They can easily make a correct fold if you move all-in.Its a $10 pot with a bet of $8... Raising $8 + $18 to $26 would make the field face a $26 bet with a $24 pot, this is the preferred play... However, given how many callers came in.... this hand would have worked well the way you played it (betting $16) if a club doesn't hit the turn... Do you see why? With 3 callers of $16, the pot now jumps to $74 and you will have $90 left on the turn.... NOW that the pot is big, you can bet most of this and take this pot down.... I would push all $90 in at this point... At this point, a flush draw is more likely to call your overbet given that they have already put good money into the pot (AND YOU WANT THEM TO CALL THIS BET --- YOU MAKE MONEY WHEN OTHERS MAKE BAD CALLS).If no club hits turn, you have big edge and can push it....Importantly, nobody pushed the flop ON YOU... A9, A7 and 777 are unlikely to be out... You enticed those hands to challenge you and didn't get any takers... Since club did hit on the turn, I like the check given there were 3 callers on flop and you didn't get raised... A flush draw is very likely out and you have avoided a check-raise when you still have good outs if the board pairs... AND you have position to decide whether to call if the board doesn't pair...net net, well played except the size of the flop raise... Make it $25 to go...

[firstyearclay 0]

looshle: looshle I was dealing with a board that had JUST a flush draw. Their wasn't three to a straight and a flush on the board. Board wasn't that scary to move my entire stack in IMO. Remember we only have like 20 seconds to execute the correct decision. I felt I wanted to build a pot and make a nice turn raise with a blank. Moving in here makes zero sense.I agree that the flop bet should of been bigger. Good point. I appreciate your post. econ tim:$8 in pot, $8 bet, $16 raise, and 2 cold called $16, getting 2-1 on their calls I was just like "Wow, one guy can't have an honest draw, and the other must, while the bettor who now calls the raise either had a flush draw as well or a weak ace." Remember these are "quick reads", I am just trying to put two or three of these guys on hands to make another QUICK evaluation (be ready for my next decision) with my turn card coming. Not everyone thinks about pot odds/implied odds, or the EV of a particular situation. They just call and pray. I honestly thought that two of these donkeys were just being a part of the action with very weak hands. BeanGW: I just cant stand when someone has the gall to add in a weak reply with "Go all in" and "you are a donkey" with out explaining himself. I just want honest opinions and discussion. Believe me, I am open to any and all advice. Smash is nothing. I am not making this post about smash. I agree about a bigger raise on the flop, good point. So you think that my mistake was on the flop and NOT on the turn??? I really shouldn't put ANY money on the turn?? If it was you, what exactly would you of done? Thanks for a great reply! (hopefully I can get more out of you!!!)custom36:My point was Two players oop are calling $16 cold. What could they have, I guess is my response. I want all replies from all levels. This is a good discussion, it just sucks that it was ruined to start. Don't judge me because of how I feel about Smash, because that isn't how I feel about all. biggamefrank:You gotta love when intelligence hits a post. "The issue with this hand is you want to build a pot while not allowing flush draws to draw profitably... " YES THANK YOU!!!!"Going all-in on the flop is playing scared... If a flush card comes, it will be staring you in the face and you have position... You can get away from it if you want.... Overbetting the pot to chase away a draw is not how you win at poker."This is a winning player talking here. You are in position and can re-evalutate on a later street. Does it get any better in NL???So Frank my question to you is two fold:1) Should I have raised in position pre-flop2) If I did say 3x the blinds and it was all called with that flop, what is my move now??Thank you Frank!!!

[NarSARSsist 0]

(Lol, i feel like such a hypocrite, I posted an earlier thread about how I wish this forum would get going instead of everyone posting in General, then Daniel reformats, people start posting here, and I disappear? :shock: )Anyway, the way I look at this hand is, you've got a donkey, a loose player, and 2 guys whom you don't have a read on. Since this is a $1/$2 game, it's likely you're up against some relatively weaker players who probably won't put you in sticky situations (like reading that you fear a flush and then stick a knife in you and bluff you if/when the club comes). While it is true that raising the minimum makes the bet $16 into a pot of $18 makes it a total of $34, which is about 2:1 odds, which is about right for a flush or an open ended straight (I hope I know how to calculate pot odds here... :oops: ). Also, because it was raised the minimum, your opponents might not be overly scared by it (they wouldn't necessarily think "oh, he's raising the minimum, that's fishy..."). Once the first guy calls, the pot then becomes $50, which really tempts the subsequent people to call. In a coordinated flop like this, what I always fear is that first caller, because then it makes the pot look that much sweeter to everyone else. Now, this is the way I'd play the hand (bear with me, I'm a rookie that makes donkeys look good ). Considering that the pot, once it goes to you, is at $18, why not bump it up to, say, $40 (I suppose it is a pretty big chunk of your chip stack, that's a problem)? That puts the pot at $58, a call of $40 for someone is tough (no pot odds for flush or straight draws, $40 is a pretty sizeable chunk, it's a pretty intimidating raise). Odds are, you'd eliminate the field down to what may be a weak ace or something (which would be drawing dead to runner runner, unless they had A 4). Alternatively looking at the field (I dunno, I've never played $1/$2), a raise to around $28 could also do the trick (though if they calculate pot odds, they'd be getting it for the draws), reducing the chance of that cascade effect ("let's all call!"). A raise of $20 more to the original raiser isn't that harsh, and he could still call it ($44 in the pot), and this does narrow the field down for you. Since it is MP1, whom you don't have a read on, this is an opportunity for you to get to know him too.This is my two cents, please bear with me and my rookie ways :oops: . Please, you kind posters out there, don't just comment on the OP only, comment on my post too, huh? :lol:Edit: Sorry firstclay, I started this before you posted your response, so you might be yelling at me for some of the same things you just posted. :?

[BeanGW 0]

Basically, my thoughts regarding the flop bet are as follows:1. First off, you do realize you need to make a bet here on the flop. You have a stong hand, but one that is vulnerable to drawing hands. You want to make a bet that would be a mistake to call by a drawing hand.2. In NL, the idea of implied odds is absolutely huge. A villain would not be making a mistake by calling a bigger bet in certain situations where the actual odds are poor, because they can "make-up" so many additional bets when they hit their hand. This is especially true in multi-way pots.3. Therefore making a small raise is obviously incorrect. Making an overbet of the pot to say, about twice the size of the pot ($40) wouldn't be a horrible second best play, IMHO. It would certainly be a better play with deep stacks where all-in plays aren't as necessary.But, pushing is better here in part because if you made a 2x pot sized bet, you would now be down to $70 on the turn. If you have even one caller, the pot on the turn would be bigger than your remaining stack. This creates a very difficult situation for you on the turn if/when a club hits. I think it's best to try to avoid these situations when possible.4. Your push will be paid off very often in these games. Anything you gain by keeping the additional players in with weak hands by betting small is made up for by the one or two villains who call your all-in. 5. Your fold equity increases with the size of your bet. Although you will be paid off often by a worse hand, there is no shame in taking down this pot right here. It is absolutely not, IMHO, playing scared, when you are up against a larger field. Heads-up, with good reads on your villain, you may be able to play the hand differently.Finally, you are getting all your money in the pot with the best hand, and with redraws that can beat a drawing flush.

[firstyearclay 0]

Who is that girl?

[Jadaki 0]

You should have raised preflop to begin with. Pocket 9's are a solid hand and by raising you are getting people with stuff like suited connecters to fold. Your flop would have been ideal if you had raised preflop, but now you are likely up against a made flush and maybe even a ace with a flush redraw.You didn't define your hand, and now have no idea if you are beat or not.You should have taken Smash's advise on the flop, but you didn't.With all that in consideration, check the turn, and be ready to fold to any large bets on the river if you don't hit your boat or quads.

[KDawgCometh 2]

Who is that girl?

looks like Heidi Klum to meokay. Like veryone else has said, you need to bet more on the flop. I think you need to raise at least 30, but again, the pot will be so big on the turn, you would need to push regardless because you would be getting nearly 2-1 effective on your money, and essentially 4-1 on your money if called, and since you would have 13 outs to a redraw on teh river if you pushed the turn, that would still be correct, so if you're gonna have to push the turn, then you should push the flop. I don't see how you aren't getting this. As abrasive as smash can be, he is normally correct in what he says, so whatever issue you have with him, you should listen to him

[wannabe 0]

You make yourself look stupid with trying to make others feel stupid with your assumption of all world NL knowledge.You're right, I'm just terrible at NL.Thanks for playing.We have some lovely parting gifts for you, like never being a winning player.Take care.

Fucckking classic

[BeanGW 0]

Who is that girl?

Her name is Marissa Miller. I know, dead ringer for Heidi K. in some pictures.Wow... just realized that was my post #1000. Yeay me!

[BeanGW 0]

You should have raised preflop to begin with. Pocket 9's are a solid hand and by raising you are getting people with stuff like suited connecters to fold.

In an NL game with some limpers, it's usually not a great idea to raise PF with pocket 9's. Basically, the plan is to limp PF, set it, or forget it.

[firstyearclay 0]

Ok, I think that the All-in theory baffles me. Why am I pushing $100 to win $8??? Why don't I just muck 99 preflop? Here is my thinking:A) I am willing to risk the turn card and a $18 loss if it comes club. I can check turn, see if I fill up with my wonderful position and if another club comes or I don't fill up on river I can reevaluate on the river. (Then it basically becomes a pot odds call)B) It sounds like noone is considering folding if the turn/river get worse?? I am definitely considering folding if board gets scarier.C) My quest is for a middle-big pot here with my risk being no more than $18 I have now invested. This is why my min. raise is good IMO, because I haven't committed myself to anything further if the board gets uglier. Card comes blank on Turn I have a nice $100 bullet to throw in the pot and any donkey drawing to his 20% (flush draw with one to come) shot can feel super free to call me at this point. All good stuff, I appreciate the time you are all taking in this post.

[Smasharoo 0]

C) My quest is for a middle-big pot here with my risk being no more than $18 I have now invested. This is why my min. raise is good IMO,This is why you're a losing player. It's amazing you try so hard to fuck up such an easy hand.Good luck.

[Jadaki 0]

In an NL game with some limpers, it's usually not a great idea to raise PF with pocket 9's.  Basically, the plan is to limp PF, set it, or forget it.

I disagree.I raise preflop to thin the field with 9's so that when I am in a pot where I have a set and 2 cards to a flush, I don't have to be as concerned about people playing stuff like 56s. If he raised, he likely gets called by one or two people with an ace, thats who you want to pay you off here. At 1/2 NL, people rarely fold aces, your going to get paid off huge if raise instead of risking the loss by letting everyone and their 3rd cousin see a cheap flop.

[firstyearclay 0]

C) My quest is for a middle-big pot here with my risk being no more than $18 I have now invested. This is why my min. raise is good IMO,This is why you're a losing player.  It's amazing you try so hard to censored up such an easy hand.Good luck.

I either lose $18 when the club comes or win $75 when no club comes or more if donk calls off chasing. Again Smash, going all in on the flop to win $17-$18 is +EV for someone that plays SNG Poker. If it works for you then Great!! Why don't you just try and be positive? What do you accomplish by being condescending? I promise you that I will not respond to you unless you come up with something intelligent. So consider your input invalid/ignored from here on out. Good Luck...Take Care...and TY!!