How Is Posible To Accept All In Withouth To See The Floop ?

[Acid_Knight 2]

Pick your standard online 6 max 1/2 NL game. Stacks are 120BBs ($240) effective.Two different situations. Players are unfamiliar with each other. Assume whatever you want.Situation 1:You are in the CO with QQ. MP opens for $7 and you reraise pot to $23. The SB coldcalls and MP now reraises to $75. Fold/shove/call & get it in on any non A/K flop? What about if you hold JJ? What about AK?Situation 2:You are in MP with XX. You open to $7 and the CO reraises pot to $23. The SB coldcalls and you reraise to $75. The CO shoves on you and the SB folds. If you have QQ, do you call? If you have AK do you call? We don't fold KK in this forum, so I didn't bother asking :)Yes, these situations are 2 sides of the same hand, but I've changed the hands around, so don't base one off of the other. Each is its own separate situation. What is your default without knowing anything about your opponent?

[tskillz187 0]

Sigh, I probably fold them both.I think situation 2 is easier fold. It's hard to push over SBs flat call in the blinds there, so I think that is extreme strength out of CO.

[Suprsystmd 0]

Itd be a hard fold, but situation 2 is a bit easier to let go of. even if your up against AK your gonna see one of those two over cards on the flop about 20% of the time

[Acid_Knight 2]

I should've linked the matching title thread in general. Maybe this thread would've gotten more respect.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Mostly I was posting this becuase Roberts and I got into a little discussion over this hand. In the real hand, I'm the CO with KK and after the SB coldcalls and the MP player reraises, I instashove on them both. The SB folds and the MP player calls almost immediately with AKo, which I think was absolutely horribly played. He didn't get rewarded for his stupidity, but I wanted to see what people thought here becuase it seems like a really weak play by the MP player. Consequently, if I had JJ, I'd probably fold almost immediately from the CO when he 4-bets it preflop and if I had QQ, my default line for the 1st time would often be to call and stack off on a non A/K flop, although i don't do that every time.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Mostly I was posting this becuase Roberts and I got into a little discussion over this hand. In the real hand, I'm the CO with KK and after the SB coldcalls and the MP player reraises, I instashove on them both. The SB folds and the MP player calls almost immediately with AKo, which I think was absolutely horribly played. He didn't get rewarded for his stupidity, but I wanted to see what people thought here becuase it seems like a really weak play by the MP player. Consequently, if I had JJ, I'd probably fold almost immediately from the CO when he 4-bets it preflop and if I had QQ, my default line for the 1st time would often be to call and stack off on a non A/K flop, although i don't do that every time.

He thought it was a tournament?Wait a second... didn't you 4 bet all in with 10-8 soooted?But yes, both are a flod, it's just a more difficult flod in the 2nd situation

[mikeysong 0]

Pick your standard online 6 max 1/2 NL game. Stacks are 120BBs ($240) effective.Two different situations. Players are unfamiliar with each other. Assume whatever you want.Situation 1:You are in the CO with QQ. MP opens for $7 and you reraise pot to $23. The SB coldcalls and MP now reraises to $75. Fold/shove/call & get it in on any non A/K flop? What about if you hold JJ? What about AK?Situation 2:You are in MP with XX. You open to $7 and the CO reraises pot to $23. The SB coldcalls and you reraise to $75. The CO shoves on you and the SB folds. If you have QQ, do you call? If you have AK do you call? We don't fold KK in this forum, so I didn't bother asking :)Yes, these situations are 2 sides of the same hand, but I've changed the hands around, so don't base one off of the other. Each is its own separate situation. What is your default without knowing anything about your opponent?

these situations are really style dependent. For example, I don't make use of the 4bet bluff as much anymore so I rarely shove and I won't until my image dictates that I need to start 4betting to balance my range. The only time I really 4bet preflop is when I am OOP or if I think villain will stack off to my nuts (get it get it?!)I will assume this is your standard 3bet game w/3 or 4 other 2p2ers at the table who are around 25/20/3 stats.situation 1: I'm calling with everything but AK and offsuit connector hands. The reason being, your "standard" regular is 3betting a wide range here. From AJo to 46s to AA may be in his re-raising range. So now what is he calling your all in with? QQ,KK,AA, AKo and maybe AQs/JJ but for the most part people don't stack off preflop with those two hands. We shove AKo because 1)we want to see the board with that hand and 2) if we get called and we're behind, we usually have some live outs to catch up. If someone's 3bet range is wide, then 4betting has a lot more FE.Now why would I recommend calling with your premiums etc? Because we're in position. If we hit or if we already have a strong hand, we can extract chips from villain postflop. If we have an overpair and villain hits top pair, it's going to be hard for him not to stack off especially if there is a draw on the flop. Another point is that villain will almost always cbet the flop, and most of the time he'll have a hand that he wouldn't be stacking off with preflop - i.e. we're getting more value out of him than we would have had we shoved. Also, our connectors have a good amount of fold equity when villain has a wide 3betting range. Flops that we're going to raise/shove are not going to hit him too often.It really is so player dependent though. If I see that villain hasn't been 3betting much, then I'll go ahead and go all in with AA/KK/AK for sure preflop and possibly QQ. If he's been doing it a lot, then I prefer to call and watch him dump more monies to me : )*I hope this is making sense so far, and I swear if this post gets deleted when I hit the submit button, I'm gonna go batshit crazySituation 2:i will NEVER fold QQ if I 4bet it, especially in this situation. There is already enough money in the pot to make stacking off correct w/QQ. Another problem is that villains may interpret the small 4bet as a bluff and may shove light. The point is - he is never shoving only AA/KK here, AK/AQs/JJ and lighter may shove. I never call with AK oop, if you miss the flop there's nothing you can do and any worse hand he has gets the better of you. There is enough money in the pot where shoving AK is correct.If you don't want to stack off w/QQ, don't 4bet it. call and get it in on drawy flops etc. Whatever spot you think villain will stack off the lightest.Another note I'd like to add:let's say you lke to play the super aggressive preflop game and people aren't calling your shoves w/AA/KK etc. enough. start 4betting light. GL tho. It's hard not to get carried away and before you know it, you've lost 30 buy ins! :DI hope I explained my thoughts well enough here.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Mostly I was posting this becuase Roberts and I got into a little discussion over this hand. In the real hand, I'm the CO with KK and after the SB coldcalls and the MP player reraises, I instashove on them both. The SB folds and the MP player calls almost immediately with AKo, which I think was absolutely horribly played.

If I'm following this case correctly, I think the problem is the light 4-bet with AK.

[mikeysong 0]

also matt - online just plays so different than live does preflop, ESPECIALLY in the 3bet/4bet area. his stackoff w/AK there really isn't bad at all. It really isn't. I'd play it the same way if I was him. In my database, AK has shown a significant amount of profit with this hyper aggressive preflop game.

[mikeysong 0]

btw, AIM me - i'll pm you

[Sheiky 0]

Situation 1 with QQ: Fold. When someone re-re-raises after the SB flats it, i'd be suprised if he had anything apart from AK, AA or KK. You're flipping with one and getting crushed by two, and i think my math is about right when i say there's about the same chance of getting aces or kings combined as there is AK. I'm not sure, but i really don't like calling with QQ there as on the flop when you don't hit a set, i can't think of any spots where he'll pay you off. So i guess i think Folding>Shoving>calling.Situation 1 with JJ: Pretty simple fold i think.Situation 1 with AK: I think calling is simply bad. Shoving or folding is quite close IMO, in the end i think it comes down to how aggressive the player/table has been and your table image.Situation 2 with QQ: I think you have to call after re-re-raising here, there's enough money in the pot already to make up for the times you run into aces or kings. Slightly clearer call with AK i think.

[Acid_Knight 2]

also matt - online just plays so different than live does preflop, ESPECIALLY in the 3bet/4bet area. his stackoff w/AK there really isn't bad at all. It really isn't. I'd play it the same way if I was him. In my database, AK has shown a significant amount of profit with this hyper aggressive preflop game.

I think the problem with his AK play is the unfamiliarity with each other. I mean, ok, you've got AK. It's a good hand, if nobody has AA or KK. You raise. You get 3 bet (no big deal) and then the 3 bet gets coldcalled by what is almost always a mid pair and sometimes someone trapping with AA/KK not wanting to give away their hand. Calling would seem to be the best option at this point, but you decide to make a smallish 4 bet. Having history would be a lot better with this move, but whatever, it's aggressive and you've got a premium hand, so it's not all bad. Now the player who 3 bet you preflop 5 bets all in. I know there's a lot of dead money in the pot to help with your odds, but with all of the strength being shown and the player calling in the SB (who the CO is not worried about), you'd have to think that his range is HEAVILY weighted towards AA/KK. I can't see myself shoving anything less without knowing about the player I 3-bet preflop here becuase it's also too likely that he's got one of those hands. Against that range (his AK vs KK and AA) he's absolutely crushed. I probably would never shove QQ there, but I'd be more likely to shove AK than QQ.I mean, don't get me wrong. I've 5 bet people AIPF with A6o and T8s and J7s and stuff, but I have a reason for doing it. I am balancing ranges and I'm making them contend with the fact that they now really have no idea what my 5 betting range entails. Against unknowns, this doesn't happen. If you've never seen me before and I 4 bet or 5 bet AIPF, it's almost certainly because my hand warrants it. David - Yes, I do not like his 4 bet preflop at all becuase it's such a crappy spot. If he just calls there, his range can be huge. If he 4-bets, it is so narrow and it allows me to play extremely well against him.Mike - I got your PM. I don't use AOL at work (but I do post here) but I'll talk to you on there later.

[David_Nicoson 1]

You're flipping with one and getting crushed by two, and i think my math is about right when i say there's about the same chance of getting aces or kings combined as there is AK.

16 combinations for AK and 12 total for AA or KK. *shrug*

[Acid_Knight 2]

Situation 1 with AK: I think calling is simply bad. Shoving or folding is quite close IMO, in the end i think it comes down to how aggressive the player/table has been and your table image.

Situation 1 with AK is a good spot to call for the CO. There's a lot of dead money in the pot. He has position and a strong hand, but maybe not one that warrants shoving here. Here, I think that depending on how he plays calling is slightly better than shoving and both are way better than folding. The RIO if he's against AA or KK aren't that high since he'll already have 1/3 of his chips in the pot.

[Sheiky 0]

Really?Adding to the reasons Mikey posted, you're only going to hit a pair 25% of the time, what do you do when you miss and he bets? If he bets the flop which is likely it's going to commit him to the pot so you have no FE and you're not going to call his all in with AK high. If you do hit, what's he going to call you with that you beat? If you flop an ace, he's probably going to let kings or queens go and you're going to get the rest of the money in against trip aces if you do, and if you flop a king, you're behind against Kings Aces and chopping with AK.I'm struggling to see how it is a good spot for a call here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Really?Adding to the reasons Mikey posted, you're only going to hit a pair 25% of the time, what do you do when you miss and he bets? If he bets the flop which is likely it's going to commit him to the pot so you have no FE and you're not going to call his all in with AK high. If you do hit, what's he going to call you with that you beat? If you flop an ace, he's probably going to let kings or queens go and you're going to get the rest of the money in against trip aces if you do, and if you flop a king, you're behind against Kings Aces and chopping with AK.I'm struggling to see how it is a good spot for a call here.

Assuming that you call the $50 or so reraise, you'll have to assume that the SB is likely to call as well. This will give you about 3.5-1 to see the flop. You will flop an A or a K about 1 out of 3 times, which makes you a 2-1 dog to flop a pair. You're getting good immediate odds to flop a pair to stack off with. Sometimes you flop a pair and the the SB or MP player has a set, but you live with that I think. Since the MP player will likely c-bet anyway, we can get some value from when he feels compelled to rep AK when he's got QQ and the flop is K93 or something. I just think that there's plenty of value there since you have position. Without position, it's a clear fold IMHO.If you miss, you just fold.

[mikeysong 0]

.****in forum doesn't allow more than 1 space equity win tie pots won pots tied honestly now look at what i have to do Hand 0: 37.057% 08.19% 28.87% 2103653 7414334.50 { AhKd }**** someone please fix it damnit.blah Hand 1: 62.943% 34.08% 28.87% 8752238 7414334.50 { KK+, AKs, AKo }imo the biggest problem with just calling in such a big pot is if you miss, you're letting a worse hand win too often. Too many times we lose value by taking the easier route in poker but imo this is one of those spots where we really should take the easier route by going all in/4betting and swiping the 50bb pot.

[mikeysong 0]

YOU BETTER APPRECIATE THAT STOVE POST CUZ THAT JUST TILTED ME LKSJFKL:SJD:FKL

[Acid_Knight 2]

imo the biggest problem with just calling in such a big pot is if you miss, you're letting a worse hand win too often. Too many times we lose value by taking the easier route in poker but imo this is one of those spots where we really should take the easier route by going all in/4betting and swiping the 50bb pot.

Your stove skills suck and I can't read them.You think that we're ever ahead in a 3 way pot with that action without flopping an A or a K? Maybe equity-wise if we got it AIPF 3 ways or AIPF against QQ with dead money from the SB, it's good for us. I think that this is a better route becuase it's unlikely that the MP player bets into 2 opponents with that preflop action without holding a pair.This way also lets us off the hook easier if he does hold AA or KK and we miss.

[David_Nicoson 1]

This way also lets us off the hook easier if he does hold AA or KK and we miss.

There's some sort of Bayes Theorem thinger we could do on that. We're less likely to be facing AA or KK if we flop a pair.

[Sheiky 0]

Acid, could you explain more on why this would be a clear fold OOP as opposed to a relatively easier call in position?I understand that position is very important in poker, but in this hand, do the advantages of acting last really change the situation that much?I can see some value you gain when he C bets a K high flop with queens, but i can't really see where else it would really help. I mean, are you going to be betting if checked to here? Folding TP if SB bets and the BB calls?Por example, imagine someone changed the way the action goes after the flop and you have to act first instead of last (hypotheticaly imagine the SB acts in between you and the 4-bettor giving you relative position), how would this effect your play and the EV of how you could continue the hand?

[mikeysong 0]

given that he's unknown, I think it pushes it even more for a call w/AK because you don't know what he's capable of. let's look at the pot size and stacks:Hero $240Villain $240u make it $7, he makes it $23, sb coldcalls for $23, and you pop it to $75, villain shoves making it $240 total. You have $165 leftPot: $338 right? You have to put in $165 to win a $338 pot. You're getting a little over 2:1. Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 25,684,560 games 0.005 secs 5,136,912,000 games/secBoard: Dead: _______equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 37.057% 08.19% 28.87% 2103653 7414334.50 { AhKs }Hand 1: 62.943% 34.08% 28.87% 8752238 7414334.50 { KK+, AKs, AKo }Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 35,958,384 games 0.001 secs 35,958,384,000 games/secBoard: Dead: _______equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 6524615 7436014.00 { AhKs }Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 14561741 7436014.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 35,958,384 games 0.001 secs 35,958,384,000 games/secBoard: Dead: _______equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 6524615 7436014.00 { AhKs }Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 14561741 7436014.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 35,958,384 games 0.001 secs 35,958,384,000 games/secBoard: Dead: _______equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 6524615 7436014.00 { AhKs }Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 14561741 7436014.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 46,232,208 games 0.005 secs 9,246,441,600 games/secBoard: Dead: _______equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 39.785% 23.66% 16.13% 10936805 7456889.50 { AhKs }Hand 1: 60.215% 44.09% 16.13% 20381624 7456889.50 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 51,369,120 games 0.005 secs 10,273,824,000 games/secBoard: Dead: _______equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 42.819% 28.08% 14.74% 14424809 7571040.00 { AhKs }Hand 1: 57.181% 42.44% 14.74% 21802231 7571040.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }

[mikeysong 0]

given those #sgoing all in is the best play. folding is a big mistake. There is too much money in the pot. At worst we need 37% equityand we haven't even touched on how this helps widen/balance our range when we go all in with QQ/KK/AA and get paid nor how it affects our table image.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Acid, could you explain more on why this would be a clear fold OOP as opposed to a relatively easier call in position?I understand that position is very important in poker, but in this hand, do the advantages of acting last really change the situation that much?I can see some value you gain when he C bets a K high flop with queens, but i can't really see where else it would really help. I mean, are you going to be betting if checked to here? Folding TP if SB bets and the BB calls?Por example, imagine someone changed the way the action goes after the flop and you have to act first instead of last (hypotheticaly imagine the SB acts in between you and the 4-bettor giving you relative position), how would this effect your play and the EV of how you could continue the hand?

It's more a definition of his hand. When players play from OOP and make strong preflop plays, their hands are much more defined. In reality, I could've 3-bet preflop with 67hh because I had position. It's kind of hard to reconstruct the example and make us OOP since we were the original 3 bettor preflop. The only way that we could be the 3 bettor OOP was if we were in the blinds or if we limp reraised, in which case there'd be no player who could coldcall the 3 bet unless we were OOP to both.I understand your points about us making a hand or missing the hand and how we're going to act. The thing is that if we have position, things are always better off for us.

[Acid_Knight 2]

given those #sgoing all in is the best play. folding is a big mistake. There is too much money in the pot. At worst we need 37% equityand we haven't even touched on how this helps widen/balance our range when we go all in with QQ/KK/AA and get paid nor how it affects our table image.

Ok I guess. I mean, the numbers can't lie. I guess the bigger mistake is the weirdly sized 4 bet preflop OOP to the 3 bettor with AKo.