Couple Hands From 1/2nl Live

[Royal_Tour 0]

1/2 NL live 10 handed.Hero 200Villain 600 - hero is new to table, only saw villain play 1 hand. seemed fairly aggro from late position, Also NOTE: UTG is very bad. plays any pair unless there is pressure.Dealt to Hero in BB KsQsUTG call, villain call c/o call, button call, sb complete, Hero check.flopKh Qd 8dsb check, hero bet 15, UTG call 15, villain raise to 50, c.o fold, button cold, sb fold, hero call. UTG fold.turn 5chero check, villain goes all in. Hero callHand 2Hero 450villain 200BB 600Hero is UTG with Jd10dhero call, UTG+1 call, MP call, villain call, c/o call, button call, sb complete, BB check.flop3c,8s,3schecks aroundturn 9cchecks to villain, villain bet 10, c/o call, button call, sb fold. bb call, hero call.river 7hBB bet 15, hero raise to 35, villain raise to 65, bb call, hero? raise or just call?I put BB on the 3 since i watched him grab chips when i raised and then grab more when villain re-raised, which meant he only planned to call both times.

[tskillz187 0]

Hand 1 fineHand 2 I just call.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Hand 1:Shove the flop. Hand 2:Fold preflop. As played, call the raise on the river.In both cases, I like to end the hand early to avoid playing out of position.

[AimHigher 0]

On hand 1: If you are calling a shove on the turn, why don't you just get it in on the flop?

[NoBBiR 0]

Post hands separately for better discussion!

On hand 1: If you are calling a shove on the turn, why don't you just get it in on the flop?

That's true, but I don't mind waiting for the turn and a non-diamond.Hand two, I would just end up calling. You should be happy with the pot if you end up having the best hand. I think you're too deep to be reraising and pot committing yourself for 250 bbs without a Full House here.

[Sheiky 0]

Hand 1:Shove the flop. Hand 2:Fold preflop. As played, call the raise on the river.In both cases, I like to end the hand early to avoid playing out of position.

Agree with hand 2.I thought raising would be better for hand one, but with UTG still to act in the hand i think calling is better.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Hand 1:Shove the flop. Hand 2:Fold preflop. As played, call the raise on the river.In both cases, I like to end the hand early to avoid playing out of position.

does anyone else think folding Jd10d in hand 2 is a bit nitty? If i'm going to fold this hand because i'm UTG, that would mean i should be folding most small PP's also no? since any PP under 8's might play in a similar fashion, fold if u miss etc..I also just called in hand 2 because i dont like the re-raise from villain, turned out he had 5,6.for hand 1 i was a bit confused and felt that If i shove i'm only getting called by 8,8, where a hand like Q8s might lay it down to the over the top 3 bet all in.I could be wrong though, what are the benefits of shoving the flop? so villain doesnt slow down on the turn if a diamond hits?

[AimHigher 0]

does anyone else think folding Jd10d in hand 2 is a bit nitty? If i'm going to fold this hand because i'm UTG, that would mean i should be folding most small PP's also no? since any PP under 8's might play in a similar fashion, fold if u miss etc..

If you want to have a broad range like this why don't you just raise these hands instead? Or raise them a certain percentage of the time. I think limping in EP is one of the things that stands out the most about opponent's PF strategy. If I know you are limping in EP with just suited connectors and small pairs, I can navigate my way through any hand against you, especially as I will most likely have position on you.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I could be wrong though, what are the benefits of shoving the flop? so villain doesnt slow down on the turn if a diamond hits?

Because we don't know what beats us, we're putting ourselves in a tough position on the turn. How do we know if he has a pair, a straight draw, or a flush draw? If we check a diamond he can represent a flush regardless of his holding. And yeah, a scare card can come that dries up our action against a worse two pair.

[trystero 0]

does anyone else think folding Jd10d in hand 2 is a bit nitty? If i'm going to fold this hand because i'm UTG, that would mean i should be folding most small PP's also no? since any PP under 8's might play in a similar fashion, fold if u miss etc..

Not at all - this is 10 handed. Folding JTd UTG is as standard as it gets. Odds of someone picking up a dominating hand are tremendous. The analogy to small pairs doesn't hold because when you do flop a set you generally win a ton of money if you get action. But with a hand like JT you're going to lose money when you get a lot of action. You're rarely getting action from worse hands unless you flop big. Yes, you're good enough to fold TPNK, but you'll have to cost yourself to discover that your hand's no good. And if you're raised pf you pretty much have to dump, for fear of flopping top pair and running into overpairs. This doesn't apply to small pairs.However, it could be correct to fold small PPs from UTG at an aggressive table with much 3-betting - they simply cannot stand heavy pf pressure.

[David_Nicoson 1]

does anyone else think folding Jd10d in hand 2 is a bit nitty?

This isn't some wild theory I cooked up. I think you'll find a lot of support for it.McEvoyBrierI don't have a link for Ciaffone, but I'm sure there's something out there. Negreanu wrote an article for some newspaper about folding your suited connectors out of position.Harrington does say something about limping JTs in early position in passive games.

[tskillz187 0]

Yeah, I think you should fold J10ss in a 10 handed game UTG. I figured you were at a pasive table to be limping it. Also, I think shoving the flop in hand 1 is correct after looking through the thread.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Ciaffone, Pot-limit and No-limit Poker, p. 29To avoid this unpleasant situation, we must go back to the beginning of the hand and cure the root of the problem. If you are deep enough in money that a check-raise will leave you out on a limb rather than all-in with no more decisions, then you must avoid building a drawing hand. Up front with deep money, you must play "pair poker" for your starting hands. The top players are strong about not building a draw up front out-of-position.Naturally, it's an imperfect world, and we can never be sure what we're building. But you can make an intelligent guess and play the percentages. If you are a hold'em player and pick up a J-10 suited on an 8-7 suited, it is more like that you will flop a draw than a made hand. Muck those hands up front, especially when the money is deep.

[tskillz187 0]

LOL at David owning every thread with quotes from various poker experts/authors.

[krup24 0]

LOL at David owning every thread with quotes from various poker experts/authors.

i agree, wealth of knowledgei was gonna agree that folding TJs UTG pf is nitty but i will recant i suppose

[Sheiky 0]

JTs is an auto-fold for me UTG in full ring.

[AimHigher 0]

Ciaffone, Pot-limit and No-limit Poker, p. 29To avoid this unpleasant situation, we must go back to the beginning of the hand and cure the root of the problem. If you are deep enough in money that a check-raise will leave you out on a limb rather than all-in with no more decisions, then you must avoid building a drawing hand. Up front with deep money, you must play "pair poker" for your starting hands. The top players are strong about not building a draw up front out-of-position.Naturally, it's an imperfect world, and we can never be sure what we're building. But you can make an intelligent guess and play the percentages. If you are a hold'em player and pick up a J-10 suited on an 8-7 suited, it is more like that you will flop a draw than a made hand. Muck those hands up front, especially when the money is deep.

Do you think that this addresses alot of the problems with playing draws OOP?For example, let's say I have a 4 flush and I am OOP. If I'm getting good odds, I will call, but often I feel that my implied odds are cut down considerably by a check-call line. If I lead, I feel that I am opening myself up to being raised out of the pot. Should I be playing my draws more actively in position and maybe passing on the OOP draws that are break even at best in terms of pot odds?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I consider myself to be one of the more Nitty Tight players anywhere and I'll limp with J/10 Suited all freaking day....I need to think about this a little.

[Zach6668 513]

I think you can limp it at very loose tables, but at full ring tables, I'd be fine with folding it in EP, as it's not a terrific hand to play HU, and quite easily dominated.

[Royal_Tour 0]

This isn't some wild theory I cooked up. I think you'll find a lot of support for it.McEvoyBrierI don't have a link for Ciaffone, but I'm sure there's something out there. Negreanu wrote an article for some newspaper about folding your suited connectors out of position.Harrington does say something about limping JTs in early position in passive games.

Thanks, I just finished HOH2 again, but thats not an excuse, I guess its been a leak of mine to limp in EP with these hands in fullring cash games.like u said about Harrington tho, The game was pretty passive/soft.also, to someone who mentioned me limping ep with certain hands, its not the case at all. I do raise suited connectors from position on occasion, I'll also open raise small PP's in EP at times. so I'm not worried about anyone getting a betting pattern on me

[TeeSludge 0]

Hand 1.. just get it in on flop.. play it the same way you'd play J10d or Kxd...Hand 2.. just call even though people show up with a ton of strange hands here As far as limping J10s in EP.. I don't mind it in most 1/2 live games because they usually either have a ton of limpers or a lot of hands where its 5-6 people to the flop for 15 aka the chain effect.. if its a tighter game then its a pretty easy muck

[David_Nicoson 1]

Do you think that this addresses alot of the problems with playing draws OOP?For example, let's say I have a 4 flush and I am OOP. If I'm getting good odds, I will call, but often I feel that my implied odds are cut down considerably by a check-call line. If I lead, I feel that I am opening myself up to being raised out of the pot. Should I be playing my draws more actively in position and maybe passing on the OOP draws that are break even at best in terms of pot odds?

Good position helps a lot of ways.

• If we call in early position with a suited connector, it's more likely that someone will raise after we act. This may be too much for us to pay for a flop.
• We can choose to check behind on the flops when our opponents try to check-raise.
• If it's checked around on the flop, we can sometimes steal even without outs.
• After our draw hits, it's much easier to get paid in position. If our opponents check to us, then they don't know if we're just betting into weakness or if we have the goods. If our opponents bet into us, then we're already getting paid.
• If it turns out we didn't have the best draw, we can sometimes escape without getting stacked by watching the action in front of us.

This post made from 100% recycled words.

[mtdesmoines 3]

1/2 NL live 10 handed.Hero 200Villain 600 - hero is new to table, only saw villain play 1 hand. seemed fairly aggro from late position, Also NOTE: UTG is very bad. plays any pair unless there is pressure.Dealt to Hero in BB KsQsUTG call, villain call c/o call, button call, sb complete, Hero check.flopKh Qd 8dsb check, hero bet 15, UTG call 15, villain raise to 50, c.o fold, button cold, sb fold, hero call. UTG fold.turn 5chero check, villain goes all in. Hero callHand 2Hero 450villain 200BB 600Hero is UTG with Jd10dhero call, UTG+1 call, MP call, villain call, c/o call, button call, sb complete, BB check.flop3c,8s,3schecks aroundturn 9cchecks to villain, villain bet 10, c/o call, button call, sb fold. bb call, hero call.river 7hBB bet 15, hero raise to 35, villain raise to 65, bb call, hero? raise or just call?I put BB on the 3 since i watched him grab chips when i raised and then grab more when villain re-raised, which meant he only planned to call both times.

Hand one, I think is fine. Hand two, I raise to around $150. I think calling a shove is OK.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Hand one, I think is fine. Hand two, I raise to around $150. I think calling a shove is OK.

He 3-bet you on a paired board and you wanna 4-bet him with a straight? That's like lighting money on fire.Hand 1 I shove the flop. If he's got a big draw, he's coming along here. The way you play it, you risk letting him check behind on the turn and fold to a river bet if the board blanks out. If you shove, you'll get called by a lot of hands that might surprise you. If he's got 88, who cares anyway cause you were gonna go broke. Hand 2 is one that I'll limp preflop in passive FR games becuase I know that I'm unlikely to make the big post flop mistakes to make it unprofitable. Folding is never wrong preflop there. Also, I would never consider anything other than calling at this point in the hand.

[navybuttons 15]

hand 1: shove flop.hand 2: i fold pre, as played obv. call.