99 vs utg raise

[econ_tim 0]

$1/$2 LHE Partyecon_tim is MP with [9s 9d]UTG raises, 3 folds, econ_tim 3 bets, 6 folds, UTG calls.Let's say UTG is position aware. So he'll raise UTG with AA-TT (maybe 99 but that's unlikely given my holdings), AK-AJ, AKs-ATs, KQ, KQs-KJs. Also let's say he'll cap AA and KK.Against these hands, I'm either way behind or have to dodge overs. So should I fold? If he has a big hand, will he pay me off enough to give me implied odds for my set?Anyway, the rest of the hand goes like this:Flop: [ 9h, Qd, Qs ]UTG bets, econ_tim calls.Turn: [ Ts ]UTG bets, econ_tim raises, UTG 3-bets, econ tim caps, UTG call.River: [Kc]UTG checks, econ_tim bets, UTG calls.In the best-case scenario flop, I didn't make up enough bets to make calling preflop correct, although the board might have slowed him down since I could have had a straight too.How loose does an early position preflop raiser need to be for me to play my nines?

[Mattnxtc 0]

i personally would have a hard time justifying fold the 9s preflop...I think after already makin the call u almost need to know his cards to not call the raise. Unless u can be positive that he has AA-1010 its seems like an easy call...Assume that is the actual postflop play..u realized he didnt have a higher pocket pair and then played normally. Unless you can be absolutely positive that he has AA-1010 i would never fold..and if u are that sure hes that predictable then it wont matter bc ull take all his money neways since he apparently doesnt show deception at all

[slash 0]

I think 3-betting PF is a little overzealous. Smooth call the 2 and you probably get somebody in there with a couple of paint cards. Like a Jack, which will pay you off.The other side of the coin is that you'd like to have 99 heads up if you think UTG is likely to be raising an unpaired overcard hand. In which case the 3 bet is good, because it further thins the field and gives you a chance to see what UTG is holding.So it depends on the character of the table, I guess. In an average game, at say 3/6, 5/10, or 10/20, against a player who I'm giving a little more credit than the average donk, I'm not 3 betting 99 preflop from middle position.

[BeanGW 0]

Tim:I don't think 9-9 from MP is good enough for an isolation reraise. I would think that it's better to call and hope that others call behind you to improve your implied odds when you hit your set. You are going to have to throw away your 9-9 far too often when you miss, and there are overcards on the board to be three-betting here. Also, in this case, if UTG caps, and no one else is in the hand, how do you play it?

[econ_tim 0]

Also, in this case, if UTG caps, and no one else is in the hand, how do you play it?

If he caps, then I'm playing very cautiously.But I think if I reraise and he just calls, then maybe I can push him off hands like TT and JJ if an A or K flops.

[idiotbocs 0]

im assuming he would bet the turn with TT.I think he has either AQ or KQ...this looks pretty standard to me

[econ_tim 0]

this looks pretty standard to me

Even preflop 3-bet?

[slash 0]

You are going to have to throw away your 9-9 far too often when you miss

This is the problem with a PF 3 bet, unless the guy plays weak/tight or you have a great read on him.

[justblaze 0]

you guys are giving villain way too much credit. Ill 3-bet PF without an incredible read here, pretty much every time at these limits. you get information, fold equity, and a little deception. i like the line.

[slash 0]

I do like the fold equity and deception you gain with a 3-bet. I still don't really like the 3-bet. You can take a stab at an overcard on the flop, but anything other than a fold and you're probably in trouble. But again, for me, it would depend on what's going on at the table and how UTG fits into that mold.

[justblaze 0]

I do like the fold equity and deception you gain with a 3-bet. I still don't really like the 3-bet. You can take a stab at an overcard on the flop, but anything other than a fold and you're probably in trouble. But again, for me, it would depend on what's going on at the table and how UTG fits into that mold.

ok, so lets say you flat-call, and the flop comes down K 10 5. UTG makes the obvious continuation bet - we...? raise? call? fold? your decisions become a lot more clear if you threebet. if he caps you need a 9. if he calls then a bet on the flop or turn will mean a lot more strength, and you can get away pretty easy.

[Mattnxtc 0]

you guys are giving villain way too much credit. Ill 3-bet PF without an incredible read here, pretty much every time at these limits. you get information, fold equity, and a little deception. i like the line.

Tim originally gave him the credit for only playin big hands...not having position id just make the call..if his read on the guy is right then the guy is going to cap preflop and bet the flop neways

[Guest]

This is a difficult decision that I have given alot of thought to in my game as well. I think the problem with just calling with the 99 is that you gain no information about what your opponent is holding, you are essentially playing for the 1 in 7.5 times that you flop a set. Whereas if you 3-bet, you atleast get the fold equity, and if he misses the flop he will give up the hand most of the time. Just as Blaze said, if you call and the flop brings an over, he will bet regardless of what he has, and you will have a very difficult decision to make. Harmon says the reraise is the way to go in SS2, and she points out that you have position, and against most players, aggression is what really wins you the money. For me I wouldn't consider calling, (unless the table is really primed for a huge multiway action with alot of river chasers) but predominantly my decision would be between 3 betting or folding depending on how tight the UTG player is.

[Smasharoo 0]

Three-betting 99 here should be automatic.

[econ_tim 0]

Three-betting 99 here should be automatic.

OK. I'm just trying to go beyond learning the standard plays to understanding the principles behind them.Maybe that way I'll be able to "take off the training wheels."I'll summarize the arguments for 3-betting:-We could be ahead of the raiser, so our 3-bet could be for value.-3-betting gives the raiser the opportunity to cap, which better defines his hand.-3-betting represents a stronger hand than 99, making the raiser more likely to misplay his cards postflop.-3-betting raises our fold equity on subsequent betting rounds.Arguments against:-Cold calling could lead people behind us to call, giving us higher implied odds for sets, etc.-Folding may be appropriate against extremely tight raisers, since we're likely 4 to 1 dogs.In sum, it looks like the arguments for 3-betting are stronger since a typical small stakes player will either be too loose preflop and/or to weak postflop, and 3-betting allows us to exploit both of those mistakes.

[Steppin Razor 0]

you guys are giving villain way too much credit. Ill 3-bet PF without an incredible read here, pretty much every time at these limits. you get information, fold equity, and a little deception. i like the line.

What he said.Why did you slow play the flop? Afraid he would toss two pair or AK?

[econ_tim 0]

What he said.Why did you slow play the flop? Afraid he would toss two pair or AK?

He should be worried about the board unless he has a queen. By calling the flop, I should be able to get at least two big bets out of him on the turn. Since most of the time he won't have a queen, I think calling the flop is the most profitable line.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Folding for one more bet shouldn't be an option.This is still the 6th best possible hand preflop, out of a possible 1326 hands.

[econ_tim 0]

Folding for one more bet shouldn't be an option.This is still the 6th best possible hand preflop, out of a possible 1326 hands.

1) Have you even read the post? Where is it one more bet to me?2) If you're counting hands that way, then it's not the sixth best.

[TheIceman05 0]

Folding for one more bet shouldn't be an option.This is still the 6th best possible hand preflop, out of a possible 1326 hands.

That's very misleading....I 3-bet 99 most of the time from Middle Position. There are relatively rare cases where I won't. But it's an automatic 3-bet against a player who is laying down lots of hands on the flop or turn. 99 can be difficult to play out of position, but heads up against a raiser, we know so much more about his hand than he does about ours when we 3-bet. We're representing a pretty narrow range of hands, and 99 might be the absolute bottom end of the spectrum. If he'll fold AQ to a bet on the flop if a king comes- or on the turn if he's whiffed completely- this hand becomes VERY easy to play. I think one of the questions you have to ask yourself when you're deciding whether to isolate with a mediocre-ish holding is, "How does he play postflop?"I think your line was perfect to the bet.Ice

[Steppin Razor 0]

He should be worried about the board unless he has a queen. By calling the flop, I should be able to get at least two big bets out of him on the turn. Since most of the time he won't have a queen, I think calling the flop is the most profitable line.

You're probably right. Only thing I was thinking is that he may think you're trying to take the pot away representing a Q, but it's much more important to get the big bets in than the small bets.

We're representing a pretty narrow range of hands, and 99 might be the absolute bottom end of the spectrum. If he'll fold AQ to a bet on the flop if a king comes- or on the turn if he's whiffed completely- this hand becomes VERY easy to play. I think one of the questions you have to ask yourself when you're deciding whether to isolate with a mediocre-ish holding is, "How does he play postflop?"I think your line was perfect to the bet.Ice

I agree. Another positive to the 3 bet is that you have good implied odds when you crack that big pair. Big pairs are going to pay you off a lot when you do flop a set of 9's.

[TheIceman05 0]

Another positive to the 3 bet is that you have good implied odds when you crack that big pair. Big pairs are going to pay you off a lot when you do flop a set of 9's.

But this isn't a reason to raise preflop. Do you see why?Ice