psujohn 0 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Hero ($51.10)Button ($39.10)Preflop: Hero is MP with A , A . Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, Button calls $1.75, 2 folds.Flop: ($4.25) 7 , Q , K (3 players)Hero bets $3.5, Button raises to $7, Hero raises to $19.5, Button calls $9.Turn: ($39.75) K (3 players)Hero ???Villain is semi-loose and rather aggressive. Something like 36/22/6Villain has less than one PSB left after calling the flop. Do we shove, check/call or check/fold - assuming that if villain bets the turn it will be all in. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Just put him all in. It's kind of a moot point because of stack sizes and pot size. He'll still call with worse hands. Link to post Share on other sites
StilettoNole 0 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Agreed. You may have just got drawn out on, but you gotta put the rest in based on stack/pot sizes. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Every time I do this, villain rolls over KJ. I think we need to be able to find folds here. Yeah, I know. Three hands, three minutes, I said fold three times. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Every time I do this, villain rolls over KJ. I think we need to be able to find folds here.You don't find folds here. You just get pissed off if he outdrew you. If he didn't have us beaten on the flop, we'll certainly be stacking him on the turn whether he improves or not, so this play is still profitable. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 You don't find folds here. You just get pissed off if he outdrew you. If he didn't have us beaten on the flop, we'll certainly be stacking him on the turn whether he improves or not, so this play is still profitable.I understand your philosophy here, but remember that we got raised on the flop. It's a signal. We CAN and SHOULD make laydowns when we're beaten. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I understand your philosophy here, but remember that we got raised on the flop. It's a signal. We CAN and SHOULD make laydowns when we're beaten.Yeah, and getting 3-1, this isn't going to be one of those spots. That's all I'm saying. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Yeah, and getting 3-1, this isn't going to be one of those spots. That's all I'm saying.Well ... yeah .... at 5:1, I call all day long. But if we're 90% sure he has a K and we're getting 3:1 ... for more than half our stack, I can fold. So I got ahead of myself. We have action to complete yet. If we want to shove, we can, but we're getting crushed 90% of the time, here and folding out the hands we need to make a profit off from. The best we can hope for out of a call from our shove is 9Tcc.Just saying this is a crappy spot; why make it worse? Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Yeah, and getting 3-1, this isn't going to be one of those spots. That's all I'm saying.i don't see how this hand is much different then the hand with QK and the clubs got there and you want to c/f or b/f. when we b/f that hand we are getting 3.9:1 to call the all in. i think this hand we are beat more than in that hand. wtf do we expect to get called with that we beat in this hand? honestly i can't see how you want to shove this hand and c/f or b/f the other. imo we are beat here at least 95% of the time. imo the other hand i would say more like 80-85%. i also did quit math and think we are getting like 2.7:1 to call here which is way worse than the other hand.if the other hand is screaming that we are beaten then what is this hand doing? Link to post Share on other sites
sactownjoey 0 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Just put him all in. It's kind of a moot point because of stack sizes and pot size. He'll still call with worse hands. How many of those do you expect him to show up with? Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 You commit to the hand on the flop, it's as simple as that for me. Sometimes he shows up with AQ here (I've seen dumber) and he shows up with JT a lot. The way we played the flop, we have to put the rest of our chips into the pot here. Even if he's got KJ or KT or whatever, it won't really matter. In the long run, he's gonna stack off on the turn unimproved and we're going to make boatloads of profit from his play with one of those hands.Villain is semi-loose and rather aggressive. Something like 36/22/6Also, those are maniac stats there. I'm just not going to fold the turn to a guy playing that many hands and being that aggressive after getting so much $$ in on the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 i don't see how this hand is much different then the hand with QK and the clubs got there and you want to c/f or b/f. when we b/f that hand we are getting 3.9:1 to call the all in. i think this hand we are beat more than in that hand. wtf do we expect to get called with that we beat in this hand? honestly i can't see how you want to shove this hand and c/f or b/f the other. imo we are beat here at least 95% of the time. imo the other hand i would say more like 80-85%. i also did quit math and think we are getting like 2.7:1 to call here which is way worse than the other hand.if the other hand is screaming that we are beaten then what is this hand doing?That hand was way different in pretty much every single way the hand was played post flop. Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 That hand was way different in pretty much every single way the hand was played post flop.wouldn't say way different. we led got raised and 3-bet here where as we led got raised and called in the other. we opened both hands pf.those are maniac stats which i kinda didn't notice at first but does TJ really commit to the 3-bet on the flop even for this guy. only hands i put him on previously are TJ and AQ that we are ahead of.i guess the difference as you say is that we committed it here on the flop where as the other hand we became passive and called the flop raise and turn went c/c. i still think we are toast here like almost always. Link to post Share on other sites
Dictius 0 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Is the villain aggressive enough to bet any two cards if we check to him on the turn? Link to post Share on other sites
psujohn 0 Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 Is the villain aggressive enough to bet any two cards if we check to him on the turn?That's a really interesting point in my mind. Is villain more likely to get it in with something we beat when he's doing the betting vs when he's doing the calling. I'd have to say yes. Anyone with those stats is clearly capable of bluffing. Assuming villain has AQ he's far more likely to bet if we check to him than he is to call - thinking his hand may be good. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I definitely think that if we have him on the K after the flop, we have to fold here. I agree with MTD, that since we are in this tough decision the safe play is to fold and not just stack off half of our stack. Definitely agree with MTD here Link to post Share on other sites
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