my finest laydown ever, set up the next hand nicely

[Rocketwadster 0]

Third hand of a session, against players I have not played before.Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.50 (real money), hand #1,667,224,732Table Belfast, 3 Jan 2006 8:13 PM ETSeat 1: M ($28.45 in chips)Seat 2: f ($14.65 in chips)Seat 3: S ($5.80 in chips)Seat 4: Rocketwad0 [ AH,AC ] ($29.60 in chips)Seat 5: p ($30.10 in chips)Seat 6: t ($29.80 in chips)Seat 7: j (17.95 in chips)Seat 8: P ($28.10 in chips)Seat 9: tl ($10.00 in chips)Seat 10: B ($5.95 in chips)ANTES/BLINDSp posts blind ($0.15), t posts blind ($0.25), t posts blind ($0.25).PRE-FLOPj calls $0.25, P calls $0.25, tl checks, B calls $0.25, M calls $0.25, f folds, S calls $0.25, Rocketwad0 bets $0.50, p calls $0.35, t calls $0.25, j calls $0.25, P calls $0.25, tl folds (ha ha ha - limp folder), B calls $0.25, M calls $0.25, S calls $0.25.Aces on the button, in a near family pot. FLOP [board cards JC,3S,8C ]p checks, t checks, j checks, P checks, B checks, M checks, S bets $0.25, Rocketwad0 bets $0.50, p folds, t folds, j folds, P folds, B calls $0.50, M folds, S calls $0.25.With that many limpers in the pot, I definately do not want to smooth-call the bet by S after it was checked to him, as there is a flush draw and straight draw there. Make em pay, I say...hey...TURN [board cards JC,3S,8C,JH ]B bets $0.50, S bets $1, Rocketwad0 folds, B calls $0.50.Well, what can I beat? Only two outs if someone has a jack or flopped a set. Easy fold with the pot that small (it was a fair size, but according to teh odds calculator, with only outs, not near big enough (PT's odds calculator says the pot needed to be $22.00, which seems high!).RIVER [board cards JC,3S,8C,JH,5S ]B checks, S bets $0.50, B calls $0.50.SHOWDOWNS shows [ JD,QC ]B shows [ 3D,3C ]B wins $8.50.I told them I had aces, which they couldn't believe that I would fold it. Almost the whole table commented about it. Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.50 (real money), hand #1,667,231,137Table Belfast, 3 Jan 2006 8:14 PM ETSeat 1: M ($27.95 in chips)Seat 2: f ($14.65 in chips)Seat 3: S ($3.30 in chips)Seat 4: Rocketwad0 [ KH,AH ] ($28.60 in chips)Seat 5: p ($29.60 in chips)Seat 6: t ($29.30 in chips)Seat 7: j ($17.45 in chips)Seat 8: P ($27.60 in chips)Seat 9: tl ($9.75 in chips)Seat 10: B ($11.95 in chips)ANTES/BLINDSt posts blind ($0.15), j posts blind ($0.25).PRE-FLOPP calls $0.25, tl folds, B calls $0.25, M calls $0.25, f calls $0.25, S calls $0.25, Rocketwad0 calls $0.25, p calls $0.25, t calls $0.10, j checks.Just a call from the cutoff with suited big slick the very next hand. Lost of limpers again. Only my fourth hand at the table, don't want them thinking I am an agressive player.FLOP [board cards 7H,6C,9H ]t checks, j bets $0.25, P calls $0.25, B calls $0.25, M calls $0.25, f folds, S calls $0.25, Rocketwad0 calls $0.25, p calls $0.25, t calls $0.25.Not a bad flop for my hand. Flush draw for me, straight draw hopefully for them. Lots of money going in the pot, don't want to scare it with a raise here.TURN [board cards 7H,6C,9H,2H ]t checks, j checks, P checks, B checks, M checks, S bets $0.50, Rocketwad0 calls $0.50, p calls $0.50, t folds, j calls $0.50, P folds, B calls $0.50, M calls $0.50.Bingo! Made my flush. Darnit, the player before me bet. Don't want to raise here, making people have to pay 2 bets to see the river, so I just call. Great, got 4 callers after my call. I am sure a raise would have made them fold.RIVER [board cards 7H,6C,9H,2H,3H ]j checks, B checks, M checks, S bets $0.50, Rocketwad0 calls $0.50, p folds, j folds, B calls $0.50, M calls $0.50.Terrible river card IMO. Would have rather gotten an offsuit 5, 8, or 10. Oh well, better than a 7, 6, 9, or 2! Again, the bettor is just before me. A raise will most likely knock out the players behind me, giving me only one more BB (from S). I call, and get two BB.SHOWDOWNS shows [ JH,10C ]Rocketwad0 shows [ KH,AH ]B mucks cardsM mucks cardsRocketwad0 wins $9.It's been a while since I had a hand go almost exactly like I envisioned. Tis a nice feeling.Thoughts?

[Briguy 0]

I think you won exactly the minimum possible on that AKs hand. Not raising preflop and on the flop are pretty significant errors.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I think you won exactly the minimum possible on that AKs hand. Not raising preflop and on the flop are pretty significant errors.

I disagree. The only thing I may have done differently would be to raise pre-flop, but like I said, I just raised the last hand, and didn't want to give out the wrong image, as I basically just sat down.

[Briguy 0]

It's .25/.50, with 8 and then 9 people to a flop. I guarantee that they aren't paying attention to your image. Half of them probably aren't even looking at the board.

[Rocketwadster 0]

It's .25/.50, with 8 and then 9 people to a flop. I guarantee that they aren't paying attention to your image. Half of them probably aren't even looking at the board.

Perhaps (the first sentance) - ha ha ha (the second sentance).

[Canada 0]

I think you won exactly the minimum possible on that AKs hand. Not raising preflop and on the flop are pretty significant errors.

I disagree. The only thing I may have done differently would be to raise pre-flop, but like I said, I just raised the last hand, and didn't want to give out the wrong image, as I basically just sat down.

That has to be the worst reason possible for not raising pre and post flop.You want your opponents to think that you are aggresive. People will begin play back at you when you have premium holdings. It generates action. Action means more money going into the pots each hand. More money in means bigger profits for the better players at the table.Beyond that its .25/.50 - there is no Meta-Game @ .25/.50You butchered that hand and cost yourself money

[Rocketwadster 0]

I can almost guarantee that had I raised on the flop, that I wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the number of bets that went in on the turn or river. Best case scenario with a raise on the flop is that ALL of my opponents called my raise (you saw the first hand where there was one limp-folder), which would be 3.5BB (7 SB's). I got 4 BB on the turn, and another 3 BB on the river. Just because it is 0.25/0.50 doesnt mean that ALL of the players are complete tools that will call willy-nilly (but I agree that some of them will). I am pretty sure that I made more money this way than had I raised the flop. Again, only thing I would do differently would be to raise pre-flop. 8)

[amarillotg 0]

this post is so ridiculous im not even sure where to begin.everything in hand 2 (and the reasoning behind it) is completey horrible.its not even close.

[Rocketwadster 0]

this post is so ridiculous im not even sure where to begin.everything in hand 2 (and the reasoning behind it) is completey horrible.its not even close.

Please enlighten me as to how you intend to make more money on this hand than how it was played. Inquiring minds would like to know.

[Briguy 0]

I just noticed that this is in the Limit section instead of the Micro section. Is this a jopke? Seriously. I don't mean to offend Rocket if it isn't a jopke, because there are serious problems with that AKs hand, and you need to fix those problems.

[Canada 0]

I can almost guarantee that had I raised on the flop, that I wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the number of bets that went in on the turn or river. Best case scenario with a raise on the flop is that ALL of my opponents called my raise (you saw the first hand where there was one limp-folder), which would be 3.5BB (7 SB's). I got 4 BB on the turn, and another 3 BB on the river. Just because it is 0.25/0.50 doesnt mean that ALL of the players are complete tools that will call willy-nilly (but I agree that some of them will). I am pretty sure that I made more money this way than had I raised the flop. Again, only thing I would do differently would be to raise pre-flop. 8)

You are being results orientated.There is no way of knowing preflop that you will have the nuts on the river.With AKs preflop you have a massive equity edge against a field of weak players. To not exploit it is criminal. You have 5 limpers already for crying out loud. Do you have any idea how much money you are throwing away!? If somebody limp-folds or you scare out the blinds, fantastic! Your equity has just increased and you get value off the callers.The flop is just as bad. You have an absolute monster and not getting in as many bets as possible in a big pot is akin to the worst poker possible.Your early mistakes were offset by the cards that hit on the turn and river ie you got luckygoing for overcalls on the turn and river is fine, but if you had played the preflop and flop fast you would have likely still been called and possibly raised on the turn and river as it looks like you are forcing through a large pair. Add that to the fact that your opponents know you can be pushed off Aces under the right conditions (ie raising) and you missed so many potential bets its sickening.I don't berate posters in strat, but you really need it hereIf you honestly think in any way shape or form that you played this well, then you have a lot to learnStop being results orientated and review your hands objectively. Its about winning the most money everytime you are in the same situation

[Rocketwadster 0]

I just noticed that this is in the Limit section instead of the Micro section. Is this a jopke? Seriously. I don't mean to offend Rocket if it isn't a jopke, because there are serious problems with that AKs hand, and you need to fix those problems.

The thing that maybe I didnt make clear is that I have clearly changed the way I played this hand, for a specific reason that I have clearly (IMO) identified. Everybody is missing the point of the post. Look at the first hand again. The guy who won the hand had a full house, and yet was a calling station (it was an underfull though). I have yet to see a FCP 0.25/0.50 table that didnt have at least 4 or 5 players just like that on it. Had I been at the table for 20 minutes, playing my normal (IMO) textbook strategy, I agree completely that I should have raised pre-flop, and even on the flop. However, I wasn't there for 20 minutes, I was there for less than 2 minutes.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I can almost guarantee that had I raised on the flop, that I wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the number of bets that went in on the turn or river.  Best case scenario with a raise on the flop is that ALL of my opponents called my raise (you saw the first hand where there was one limp-folder), which would be 3.5BB (7 SB's).  I got 4 BB on the turn, and another 3 BB on the river.  Just because it is 0.25/0.50 doesnt mean that ALL of the players are complete tools that will call willy-nilly (but I agree that some of them will).  I am pretty sure that I made more money this way than had I raised the flop.  Again, only thing I would do differently would be to raise pre-flop. 8)

You are being results orientated.There is no way of knowing preflop that you will have the nuts on the river.With AKs preflop you have a massive equity edge against a field of weak players. To not exploit it is criminal. You have 5 limpers already for crying out loud. Do you have any idea how much money you are throwing away!? If somebody limp-folds or you scare out the blinds, fantastic! Your equity has just increased and you get value off the callers.The flop is just as bad. You have an absolute monster and not getting in as many bets as possible in a big pot is akin to the worst poker possible.Your early mistakes were offset by the cards that hit on the turn and river ie you got luckygoing for overcalls on the turn and river is fine, but if you had played the preflop and flop fast you would have likely still been called and possibly raised on the turn and river as it looks like you are forcing through a large pair. Add that to the fact that your opponents know you can be pushed off Aces under the right conditions (ie raising) and you missed so many potential bets its sickening.I don't berate posters in strat, but you really need it hereIf you honestly think in any way shape or form that you played this well, then you have a lot to learnStop being results orientated and review your hands objectively. Its about winning the most money everytime you are in the same situation

I can take criticism, so don't worry about your "berate" posters line, as I am a big boy (lol). I am still learning how to play on these extremely loose-passive tables at FCP...However, see my thoughts indicated just above. I had a clear idea of what I was doing pre-flop, and on the flop, turn, and river. Was I incorrect in thinking that the players at the table have any idea of what a table image is - perhaps. Was I incorrect in thinking that if I raised the flop that I would not have won as much money in the end - I don't think so.Was I lucky that I ended up winning the hand - perhaps, but I am not looking at that. Had the river paired the board and I lost to a full house, it wouldn't change my thoughts at the time I was playing the hand that I was trying to maximize my profit for the hand.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I just checked out the micro-limit section. This should have been put in there - sorry.

[amarillotg 0]

this post is so ridiculous im not even sure where to begin.everything in hand 2 (and the reasoning behind it) is completey horrible.its not even close.

Please enlighten me as to how you intend to make more money on this hand than how it was played. Inquiring minds would like to know.

there's no hope in trying to enlighten you so i won't even waste my time. the past has taught me you never listen to the advice given to you on this forum no matter how many people disagree with you.if you played the hands so perfectly then why are you posting them? to gloat?

[Canada 0]

Ok - lets review your thinking then

Just a call from the cutoff with suited big slick the very next hand. Lost of limpers again. Only my fourth hand at the table' date=' don't want them thinking I am an agressive player[/b'].How does this work - I really don't get this. If you are a good player you will be raising a lot; there is nothing you can do about that. You will be pegged as an aggressive player.This is a good thing. From the opponents perspective you raise a lot - therefore you bluff a lot, therefore they playback at you with more and more marginal hands, making more amnd more mistakesYou want this because you are raising when you have an equity edge or strong cards. Being pegged as aggresive is perfect - it makes you moneyIf they think you are weak, every time you raise, they run. You get no value from your winning hands.Not raising with AKs preflop is giving away free money with no gainRead that a few times

FLOP [board cards 7H' date=6C,9H ]t checks, j bets $0.25, P calls $0.25, B calls $0.25, M calls $0.25, f folds, S calls $0.25, Rocketwad0 calls $0.25, p calls $0.25, t calls $0.25.Not a bad flop for my hand. Flush draw for me, straight draw hopefully for them. Lots of money going in the pot, don't want to scare it with a raise here.Ok - great flop and a big pot (it would be huge if you played preflop correctly)For simple value reasons alone raising here is a must. You still have an equity edge, you have great position and a ton of callers to give you value. Get your money in whilst you are ahead (equity speaking)Raising also gives you the opportunity to take a free card, because whilst you will win this probably close to 40% of the time you are no winning now and need to hit the turn or river.Guess what raising here also increases your chances of?CappingAfter that you bring it home correctly.Honestly find 1 respected poster here that says you played the preflop & flop correctly - you won't

[Rocketwadster 0]

I am not asking for anyone to say that I played it correctly from a textbook sort of play, as I have many times indicated that I intended from the git-go after that aces laydown hand to play this one differently than I normally would. I firmly agree without question that I played it less than optimally, but that was my intention from the begenning when I saw my holecards.

[Briguy 0]

Rocket: You are wrong. Sorry, but you are. You get way more value by raising preflop and flop (and hopefully turn, if the opportunity presents). You have to realize that these no-fold'em players would call your flop raise after already sticking one bet in the pot. They then would've called your turn bet after checking to you, and someone with 2-pair or a lower flush may have even check-raised you. They then would've called your river bet, especially the JH player, who may have bet himself (allowing you to go for overcalls or raise, depending on the situation).At minimum:Preflop raise: 6-8 people ~= 7 BBFlop raise: 4-6 people ~= 5 BBTurn bet: 3-5 people ~= 4 BBRiver bet 2-4 people ~= 3 BB19 BB, as a mimimum mean, given a more optimum line. That is approximately what you won, with FPS, but it is a minimum. This assumes that you are never re-raised on the flop, and never raised on the turn or river. If you are up against someone with a lower flush, an 8, a set, top pair, or two pair, more bets could easily be available on the flop and the turn.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Rocket:  You are wrong.  Sorry, but you are.  You get way more value by raising preflop and flop (and hopefully turn, if the opportunity presents).  You have to realize that these no-fold'em players would call your flop raise after already sticking one bet in the pot.  They then would've called your turn bet after checking to you, and someone with 2-pair or a lower flush may have even check-raised you.  They then would've called your river bet, especially the JH player, who may have bet himself (allowing you to go for overcalls or raise, depending on the situation).At minimum:Preflop raise: 6-8 people ~= 7 BBFlop raise: 4-6 people ~= 5 BBTurn bet: 3-5 people ~= 4 BBRiver bet 2-4 people ~= 3 BB19 BB, as a mimimum mean, given a more optimum line.  That is approximately what you won, with FPS, but it is a minimum.  This assumes that you are never re-raised on the flop, and never raised on the turn or river.  If you are up against someone with a lower flush, an 8, a set, top pair, or two pair, more bets could easily be available on the flop and the turn.

Not arguing with you on that, as I agree that that is how I would normally play it. Thought that I needed to mix it up is all after that aces hand, but as you indicated in I believe your second response to this topic, it would not be required probably 95% of the time at this level.Nuff said. :wink:

[amarillotg 0]

I firmly agree without question that I played it less than optimally, but that was my intention from the begenning when I saw my holecards.

thats friggin priceless.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I firmly agree without question that I played it less than optimally, but that was my intention from the begenning when I saw my holecards.

thats friggin priceless.

Oops, missed a little something-something when I typed that...lolI think you know what I meant to say there.I can see the jfarell comments coming... :oops:

[Canada 0]

Thought that I needed to mix it up is all after that aces hand, but as you indicated in I believe your second response to this topic, it would not be required probably 95% of the time at this level.Nuff said. :wink:

Nope, you are not getting away with that. Mixing it up is a piss poor excuse and is not applicable here.Smooth calling AA HU vs the SB or raising 89s on the button after 5 limpers are good examples of 'mixing it up'This isn't. Understand the difference and don't do it again

[Rocketwadster 0]

Thought that I needed to mix it up is all after that aces hand, but as you indicated in I believe your second response to this topic, it would not be required probably 95% of the time at this level.Nuff said. :wink:

Nope, you are not getting away with that. Mixing it up is a piss poor excuse and is not applicable here.Smooth calling AA HU vs the SB or raising 89s on the button after 5 limpers are good examples of 'mixing it up'This isn't. Understand the difference and don't do it again

Really? I would think that raising hands like 89s would be pretty standard, but simply calling ace-king suited on the button to 8 limpers would be mixing it up for sure. :?

[amarillotg 0]

Thought that I needed to mix it up is all after that aces hand, but as you indicated in I believe your second response to this topic, it would not be required probably 95% of the time at this level.Nuff said. :wink:

Nope, you are not getting away with that. Mixing it up is a piss poor excuse and is not applicable here.Smooth calling AA HU vs the SB or raising 89s on the button after 5 limpers are good examples of 'mixing it up'This isn't. Understand the difference and don't do it again

Really? I would think that raising hands like 89s would be pretty standard, but simply calling ace-king suited on the button to 8 limpers would be mixing it up for sure. :?

:doh: :bubblehelp:

[Canada 0]

Really?  I would think that raising hands like 89s would be pretty standard, but simply calling ace-king suited on the button to 8 limpers would be mixing it up for sure. :?

No, 89s tends to be close to equity neutral to a field that favours the higher end of the deck.By raising, you are making a small -'ve EV change to sell the fact that you are a maniac.Limping the AKs costs a fortune and is less likely to be noticed by bad players.They are both changes from the norm but one has small cost and potential benefits the other is expensive and is likely to be ignored.See the difference?