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Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (7 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is CO with [9s], [Ad]. UTG calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.Flop: (5.50 SB) [Th], [5h], [7h] (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.Turn: (3.75 BB) [Ac] (2 players)UTG checks, Hero checks.River: (3.75 BB) [Qs] (2 players)UTG checks, Hero ????Just making sure here, do I value bet the river. Any other issues? UTG was relatively loose/weak, limping with a wide range of hands.

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Guest Zach6668

I don't play 10/20, but why don't you bet? If he is loose in his UTG limps then you should bet. What was is aggression factor post-flop? Would you have expected him to bet a better ace on the turn?Zach

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River: (3.75 BB) [Qs] (2 players)  UTG checks, Hero ????
I'm guessing you bet. :-) Anyway, you should have bet this turn. If he's drawing, he will pay you off on the turn, not the river. Also, if you check the turn and a heart comes on the river, you set yourself up to be bluffed off the best hand.River is a bet too.
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The turn is a mandatory bet on this board.Even though a very likely hand is a missed draw here, the river's still a bet. He might have called with a ten or ten+draw hand on the flop, so you should be able to get a little value on the riverIce

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Err... maybe im missing something, but is that not a sketchy preflop raise with an UTG limper?
His hand rates to be worse than ours, methinks, and we'd like to contest this hand in the HU realm. I think the raise is pretty standard/fineIce
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Err... maybe im missing something, but is that not a sketchy preflop raise with an UTG limper?
you can raise a lot of stuff from the CO or Button when there is just one limperyou want to play the hand heads up with positional advantagea lot of preflop limpers will fold way too much on the flop
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His hand rates to be worse than ours, methinks, and we'd like to contest this hand in the HU realm.  I think the raise is pretty standard/fine
I fares well against the limpers hand heads up typically, but only marginally so. He's probably not limping with complete trash unless you have reason to believe that he's particularly loose (maybe im giving too much credit to him on account of the fact that it's 10/20). He probably has a small pair, suited connectors, or weak broadways (or as strong as AJ).Obviously if we knew we could get it heads up with someone that had that range of hands, we'd be all for it - but we're not always getting it heads up, and there will be a fair number of times where the button or blinds wake up with a hand that dominates us.When that happens, we're in worse shape than we are in good shape when we DO get it heads up... if you know what i mean.Im not sure how often this raise manages to get it heads up, but i tend not to think often enough.
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Abaddabba,The pf raise is mandatory. Not raising here is a pretty big error. Our hand fares very well against UTG's limping range. Also, we would like the blinds to fold, but if someone calls, we still have a hand with value.Raising also allows us to take the intiative, and if we hit a favorable flop, we may get our opponents to lay down hands that have 6 outs against us.We have an equity edge with a hand that we would like to get HU. If someone else comes along for the ride, no big deal. Our raise still has more value than limping. I would raise as low as 66 in this spot.

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When you get it heads up or get weak calls from the BB, you're in a marginally profitable situation. When you get 3bet by a dominating hand or are otherwise dominated by a BB caller or UTG, you're in a not so marginally unprofitable situation.

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When you get it heads up or get weak calls from the BB, you're in a marginally profitable situation.
You're actually in a very profitable situation.
When you get 3bet by a dominating hand or are otherwise dominated by a BB caller or UTG, you're in a not so marginally unprofitable situation.
You are unlikely to be dominated. If it happens, it happens. You are much more likely to be the one dominating.There's really not much more to it than that. Our hand has an equity edge over our opponents. A call shows immediate value but makes our hand much more difficult play postflop. A raise maximizes our value.Calling/folding is giving up way too much.
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Where do you draw the line?
66.
Do you raise this from MP too?
Yes. I also raise this from UTG+2 and the BB.
There are 3 people left to act when you're in the CO.  Too many bullets to dodge, in my opinion - unless everyone behind you is particularly tight.
That's not the right way to think about poker.And why are you assuming UTG has tight limping standards while the rest of the table is loose? That's the worst case scenario. And even in that case this becomes a raise.
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How loose is loose?You define UTG as loose/weak, but i dont interpret that as being the same as a loose/weak at, say, a 2/4 table.Should i be?And you're actually saying that you raise A9off utg+2 in a full ring? Or are you saying that you do that when it's 7 handed?

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The pf raise is mandatory.  Not raising here is a pretty big error.
actually, i think limping would be a big errorraising > folding >> limpingand raising is only ahead of folding if you are going to play competently postflop (this is true for a lot of hands, though)
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The pf raise is mandatory.  Not raising here is a pretty big error.
actually, i think limping would be a big errorraising > folding >> limpingand raising is only ahead of folding if you are going to play competently postflop (this is true for a lot of hands, though)
Limping becomes a very large error ONLY if the button plays, I think. Otherwise, we have the best hand most of the time, with a positional advantage.But against thinking players, our fold equity on the flop is very small, because we limped from the cutoff.Anyway, it should be a pretty easy raise. We'll end up being in position with a playable hand... how can this be unprofitable in the long run? Abba, you're scaring me.Wang
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How loose is loose?You define UTG as loose/weak, but i dont interpret that as being the same as a loose/weak at, say, a 2/4 table.Should i be?And you're actually saying that you raise A9off utg+2 in a full ring?  Or are you saying that you do that when it's 7 handed?
I never assumed UTG is loose/weak. I was actually considering him to be a decent playing opponent. Maybe something like 22/10/2.It really doesn't matter how your opponents play. You should still raise.I also never said I'm raising A9o in a full ring. I don't know where you got that too. I'll just assume your drunk. :-)
actually, i think limping would be a big error  raising > folding >> limping  and raising is only ahead of folding if you are going to play competently postflop (this is true for a lot of hands, though)
There's no way calling with this hand won't show a profit. There's no way raising is even close to folding.I'm going out to get drunk. I'll post more thoughts on this tomorrow if you guys are still thinking this way.
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I'm going out to get drunk.  I'll post more thoughts on this tomorrow if you guys are still thinking this way.
Don't worry about it. You/we are correct.I'm also getting/am already drunk. Enjoy your evening. And make sure you post something randomly at the end of the night if you're anywhere near blacking out
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now that i'm thinking about it i guess calling with A9o here is OKwhat motivated my earlier post was that someone who limps here probaly won't play it well postflop and should probably just fold iti still think raising is good

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I just think that you're overestimating the edge that A9off has against the the best of 3 random hands and an UTG limper.But i dont think that it's a big deal either.I mean, while i generally would raise A/10off here, i probably wouldnt raise A/8 or A/7off here, and A/9 is that somewhere in between type of hand.

I never assumed UTG is loose/weak. I was actually considering him to be a decent playing opponent. Maybe something like 22/10/2.  
Wtf?Are we even talking about hte same thread? Isnt zimmer the one who played the hand? And last i checked, he wrote that he thought UTG was loose/weak in the OP.
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I just think that you're overestimating the edge that A9off has against the the best of 3 random hands and an UTG limper.
We always have an edge against an UTG limper, right? His range here is WAY behind Ace-high.Now to the 3 players left to act.The button calls a raise with... what? Let's say AJs, KQs, 77, 88. Maybe 3-bets with 99-AA, AQ-AK. Not a ton of hands. It's important to get him to fold the button, so we use the gap theory to our advantage.We're ahead of the SB-BB random range, and don't even really HAVE to be ahead, since we'll have the button most of the time. Being in position here means we don't have to have much of a hand at all to show a profit given our post flop fold equity combined with our posiiton.Even if someone/screech DOES overestimate the edge that A9o has against these 4 hands, it would be silly to deny that such an edge exists, especially in the cutoff seat.Wang
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