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I am probably going to get destroyed over mentioning this...it's over a very small sample size, something like 6,000 hands. The reason I'm posting this is because I'm on about a 200BB downswing and really pissed about it. I just keep making second best hands in the last week or so...so I decided to check out my PT stats, and came up with one glaring leak:My VPIP is at about 26%. So my question is, does anyone on here make a steady win rate with a VPIP this high? I'm sure Zach and Frez have mentioned playing this many hands can be profitable... but for me is this the obvious leak that needs plugging? Feel free to give me your wrath. Thanks in advance everyone. Craig

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It's unlikely to be profitable, unless you're playing against complete monkeys postflop.At this point too, we can start to worry about how the rake affects our winrate. The higher the rake is, the fewer hands we should play.I think we could get away with 22-23% VPIP, but 26 is probably pushing it a lot.Again, you gotta be super good postflop tho, and the rake at lower limits is probably far too large for this to happen.

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I am probably going to get destroyed over mentioning this...it's over a very small sample size, something like 6,000 hands. The reason I'm posting this is because I'm on about a 200BB downswing and really pissed about it. I just keep making second best hands in the last week or so...so I decided to check out my PT stats, and came up with one glaring leak:My VPIP is at about 26%. So my question is, does anyone on here make a steady win rate with a VPIP this high? I'm sure Zach and Frez have mentioned playing this many hands can be profitable... but for me is this the obvious leak that needs plugging? Feel free to give me your wrath. Thanks in advance everyone. Craig
You're playing WAY too many hands. Most of them are probably in marginal situations and some probably aren't even in profitable ones. You need to really start tightening up in earlier positions and not get involved in hands just because you like what you're dealt.Remember, you are looking for positive situations that are profitable. You're not just gambling and playing cards.Exploit your advantages and save on all the hands that you don't have one.
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It's unlikely to be profitable, unless you're playing against complete monkeys postflop.At this point too, we can start to worry about how the rake affects our winrate. The higher the rake is, the fewer hands we should play.I think we could get away with 22-23% VPIP, but 26 is probably pushing it a lot.Again, you gotta be super good postflop tho, and the rake at lower limits is probably far too large for this to happen.
Thanks Zach, the rake is something I just haven't thought about very much at all. Is there an article you or someone else can point me to that goes into detail about the effect of the rake?
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what happens to a lot of players is that they start to run bad, and in compensation they start playing more hands, hoping to start hitting some good boards and getting their money back. instead, they just lose more because now theyre playing badly, also.what you should do when youre running badly is tighten up a bit. that should slow the bleeding and help turn it around.well, what you should really do is not change your game at all, but thats almost impossible for someone to do.

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more than likely it's correalted to your bad slum; but it's certainly possible that you cna play 26% over 6000 hands and not lose $$$.You may be taking hands too far though that realistically don't have the proper odds to compete

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From the responses, I'm going to assume that you pretty much play FR only and everyone on here knows that. I think 26% can be okay at 6-max, but at full ring, you'll get murdered. Take a look at PT and see where your extra hands are coming from. Are you defending your blinds too much? Are you playing too many hands in EP? These are the two most likely leaks. If you make a concerted effort to tighten up in these two areas it could be very helpful. If you have SSHE, you could also pull it out and try strictly adhering to the "tight game" pre-flop guidelines for a session or two, to try to figure out where you've been playing too many hands. I reckon that with the state of online poker these days, those guidelines may be a little bit tighter than is optimal, but they'd be a good baseline for getting your VPIP back under control.

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Guys, please don't become 2+2 robots and say things like never about stats.Here are my stats from On Game for 7-10 handed games. I play a bit loose and do a lot more calling than a lot of players do.Rake is not as big an issue at the limits I play at however.ongame7to10handedfeb908qk8.jpg

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Guys, please don't become 2+2 robots and say things like never about stats.Here are my stats from On Game for 7-10 handed games. I play a bit loose and do a lot more calling than a lot of players do.Rake is not as big an issue at the limits I play at however.ongame7to10handedfeb908qk8.jpg
These are some eye-opening stats. Especially at higher limits. I'd say 25k hands is enough to be fairly significant and a winrate of almost 3BB/100 is stellar. I find this most interesting because your VP$IP is pretty high, but your postflop AF is lower than I'd come to believe was optimal back when I was playing alot of limit hold'em. What I'm most curious about is how these games usually play, I highly doubt that they're the type of loose/passive games that SSHE trained players were used to seeing a couple of years ago online and live. Are most of the players very aggressive? Is your AF maybe lower because you're letting bet monkeys bet into you with nothing and calling them down with some more marginal holdings? Does the higher VPIP come more from defending the blinds alot and stealing more often, or does it come from playing more hands in all positions (things like limping in EP and MP more often)? I'd be surprised if it's the latter, but I'm very interested to find out.
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What I'm most curious about is how these games usually play, I highly doubt that they're the type of loose/passive games that SSHE trained players were used to seeing a couple of years ago online and live. Are most of the players very aggressive?
That's the key.The average game has changed SO MUCH since the SSHE days.Even your average moron knows that you have to be aggressive to win at poker. He saw it on the Full Tilt ad on TV.
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That's the key.The average game has changed SO MUCH since the SSHE days.Even your average moron knows that you have to be aggressive to win at poker. He saw it on the Full Tilt ad on TV.
I didn't realize this until a couple of days ago, but I think it could be a key to me being able to make a comeback in poker. I've always beaten up on .5/1 online games, but the MANNER in which I've done so lately is very, very different from the way I used to do it back in the glory days of Party Poker. I think tighter more aggressive games require a much different approach, and I never really realized that.
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Poker is an ever changing game.You can't just read a book that tells you to raise and be aggressive and expect to win forever.In certain game conditions (ie Party 2002, Live 3/6, etc), it will apply, but in general, to learn to beat poker for life, you need to understand WHY they are advocating those decisions.Basically, we need to know the fundamentals, and how to exploit various game conditions. That's the key to long term poker success.For now, people will start to win by being much more passive, and letting the monkeys spew their chips.A few years from now, maybe everyone will be calling more loosely, so we'll be going back to where playing a tight aggressive game is the key.And so on, it's an evolving game. Nothing is static with poker.

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These are some eye-opening stats. Especially at higher limits. I'd say 25k hands is enough to be fairly significant and a winrate of almost 3BB/100 is stellar. I find this most interesting because your VP$IP is pretty high, but your postflop AF is lower than I'd come to believe was optimal back when I was playing alot of limit hold'em. What I'm most curious about is how these games usually play, I highly doubt that they're the type of loose/passive games that SSHE trained players were used to seeing a couple of years ago online and live. Are most of the players very aggressive? Is your AF maybe lower because you're letting bet monkeys bet into you with nothing and calling them down with some more marginal holdings? Does the higher VPIP come more from defending the blinds alot and stealing more often, or does it come from playing more hands in all positions (things like limping in EP and MP more often)? I'd be surprised if it's the latter, but I'm very interested to find out.
The player base at 25/50 and 50/100 isn't that large so most of the time I've played quite a bit with most of the players in the game which helps me to play well post flop since I know how they play against me and factor that into my play.Too many players these days play like robots. Raise Good, Call Bad.I protect my blinds a lot since so many of the raises are just done because they were taught that is what they should do. I like to just call when I'm in position and let the other player take the lead when I have a medium strong hand in heads up situations. Because I vary my play my opponents have a harder time putting me on hands. A lot of my play is about randomizing things, this isn't important when playing at lower limits with players who you don't have a history with and who won't pay attention anyway.
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The player base at 25/50 and 50/100 isn't that large so most of the time I've played quite a bit with most of the players in the game which helps me to play well post flop since I know how they play against me and factor that into my play.Too many players these days play like robots. Raise Good, Call Bad.I protect my blinds a lot since so many of the raises are just done because they were taught that is what they should do. I like to just call when I'm in position and let the other player take the lead when I have a medium strong hand in heads up situations. Because I vary my play my opponents have a harder time putting me on hands. A lot of my play is about randomizing things, this isn't important when playing at lower limits with players who you don't have a history with and who won't pay attention anyway.
Even as low as .5/1, I've found that I'm seeing more of the same players in the game online. The face of online poker has changed to where the player base is small enough that even at lower limits we're finding alot of the same players and they're even paying some attention.
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Hey guys - been gone for 10 days cruising, so I'm late to weigh in on this.First, Bob's stats are freakin' outstanding. That's all I can really say.Craiger, gotta play less hands. If you are making a lot of second best hands, it's because you are starting with second best holdings. Me, I'm fighting to bring my full ring VPIP up from 17% or so now that I have half a clue on post flop play.Depending on the sites you play, you certainly can get to know the players at your level, and if you can that's important becuase there's been a lot of overfishing in the past few years, so the players that survived to the low-mid limits are way better than the flood of rookies a few years ago.

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Interesting thing I noted today on FullTilt. My current bankroll isn't even technically enough for .5/1, but that's what I've been playing lately. Anyway, I decided to take a small shot at 2/4 since I'm thinking about depositing more money and playing that level again. I found that the 2/4 table I was on was actually fishier than any of the 3 .5/1 tables I had going at the same time. I dunno really what that means but it's kinda crazy. A quick 40 bucks on the 2/4 table was a nice thing to add to my roll too.

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Interesting thing I noted today on FullTilt. My current bankroll isn't even technically enough for .5/1, but that's what I've been playing lately. Anyway, I decided to take a small shot at 2/4 since I'm thinking about depositing more money and playing that level again. I found that the 2/4 table I was on was actually fishier than any of the 3 .5/1 tables I had going at the same time. I dunno really what that means but it's kinda crazy. A quick 40 bucks on the 2/4 table was a nice thing to add to my roll too.
That doesn't surprise me at all. Some of the players in the 25/50 games I've played in are truly horrible.
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Hey guys - been gone for 10 days cruising, so I'm late to weigh in on this.First, Bob's stats are freakin' outstanding. That's all I can really say.Craiger, gotta play less hands. If you are making a lot of second best hands, it's because you are starting with second best holdings. Me, I'm fighting to bring my full ring VPIP up from 17% or so now that I have half a clue on post flop play.Depending on the sites you play, you certainly can get to know the players at your level, and if you can that's important becuase there's been a lot of overfishing in the past few years, so the players that survived to the low-mid limits are way better than the flood of rookies a few years ago.
The thing that reassures me about this stupid downswing is that now I have something concrete I know I need to fix. I'll shoot for about 18% and see where that leaves me. Thanks for all the sweet replies guys. ps - Bob is now officially my hero. I hope I can post stats like that one day, yee haw :club:
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That doesn't surprise me at all. Some of the players in the 25/50 games I've played in are truly horrible.
You're an inspiration to us all!How the hell do these guys finance their play at level 5/10+ when they can't win?
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You're an inspiration to us all!How the hell do these guys finance their play at level 5/10+ when they can't win?
Most people who gamble lose. Some of them lose more than others.One of the nice things about playing at On Game is that a lot of the sites that make up the network are Sportsbooks. Guy wins $1000 betting on a soccer match and then loses it at poker.
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Most people who gamble lose. Some of them lose more than others.One of the nice things about playing at On Game is that a lot of the sites that make up the network are Sportsbooks. Guy wins $1000 betting on a soccer match and then loses it at poker.
On Game is non-US players only, correct?
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