Ace King = Passive

[simo_8ball 0]

Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.506 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $80.75Hero: $64.50CO: $57.45Button: $50SB: $12.35BB: $47.45Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K A UTG folds, Hero raises to $1.75, 3 folds, BB raises to $5.5, Hero calls $3.75 (pot was $7).Flop: K 2 9 ($11.25, 2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.Turn: J ($11.25, 2 players)BB bets $11.25, Hero calls $11.25 (pot was $22.5).River: 7 ($33.75, 2 players)BB is all-in $30.7, Hero folds.Uncalled bets: $30.7 returned to BB.Results:Final pot: $33.75Thoughts? Villain is 23/9/2.4 over 2500 hands.

[Metternich 0]

I guess this is probably smart, I can't think what takes this line other than a maniac or things that beat you. I feel like you got 2-outed by a pair of jacks on that turn.

[cwik 0]

just bet the flop. tp/tk is not the nutz guys.

[mtdesmoines 3]

just bet the flop. tp/tk is not the nutz guys.

IT'S THE NUTS ... WE MUST TRAPZ WIZ IT!

[simo_8ball 0]

Villain either has 2 outs, or I have 2 outs (or I'm dead to running A-A).If I bet, I'm folding to a checkraise every time, and I could get bluffed off by another AK. Which, admittedly, may have happened more expensively with my line.

[00timh 0]

Yeah, it sure does look like he caught it with the J's. His stats would certainly indicate J's. Doesn't raise much. not all that aggro.

[NoBBiR 0]

I still bet the flop after he checks.I guess you have to fold the river after he bets again. His line only makes sense for hands that beat you or you tie.

[Metternich 0]

My first reaction was to say bet the flop also, but I think this line was ultimately smarter. If we bet the flop what better hands do we get to fold? None. What worse hands call? Probably none. If we check the flop we might get action on the turn from a pair or queens or jacks betting at the pot. I think the way it was played was the best line, calling the turn is good because a lot of hands make that bet but the river bet is only made by things that have you beat (AA, 99, JJ)I think saying bet the flop is being results oriented, we get more value by checking when he has 1010-QQ and doesn't turn a set. There aren't any draws out there so we don't need to protect, we're either wa/wb. We're way ahead more often than we're behind so we might as well try and get some value, if he does in fact have AA then I'm sure he'll let us know it.

[potatoman 0]

I'm fine with the way you played the hand. I, personally bet the flop more often than I check it. "Villain either has 2 outs, or I have 2 outs (or I'm dead to running A-A)."I get this. Either I'm going to bet and have my opponent fold or I'm going to get check raised. Maybe some opponents will call/raise a weak bet with queens or jacks and try to take it away on the turn. If my opponent aways shuts down with an overcard on the flop, I have to take that into account.If my opponent has say a pair of Jacks or Queens, and isn't willing to represent AK or aces on the flop, I'm not sure how much value I'm going to get out of him by checking. If I'm facing AA or KK, I think I'd rather get check raised on the flop than call a pot sized bet on the turn. Obviously, the chances of facing KK or AA are slim, since I hold AK and it's six handed. There's a much better chance of facing AK, QQ or JJ.I guess the pot's big enough for me to be happy taking it down on the flop. I don't think there's much of a chance of extracting much more value by checking my TPTK. And, it's read dependent obviously, but if I'm only getting check raised by monster hands on the flop, I'd rather get that over with on the flop, while I can get away from my hand easier.I see the argument for the way you played it as well, just not my plan A.

[NonZeroPossibility 0]

I don't know, this seems a little too passive. JJ is really the only hand that beats us that makes any sense at all. I think we need to fold or push turn. If I was Villain, I would have played the hand the same way with ATC.There's no way he put you on AK.

[NoBBiR 0]

My first reaction was to say bet the flop also, but I think this line was ultimately smarter. If we bet the flop what better hands do we get to fold? None. What worse hands call? Probably none. If we check the flop we might get action on the turn from a pair or queens or jacks betting at the pot. I think the way it was played was the best line, calling the turn is good because a lot of hands make that bet but the river bet is only made by things that have you beat (AA, 99, JJ)I think saying bet the flop is being results oriented, we get more value by checking when he has 1010-QQ and doesn't turn a set. There aren't any draws out there so we don't need to protect, we're either wa/wb. We're way ahead more often than we're behind so we might as well try and get some value, if he does in fact have AA then I'm sure he'll let us know it.

Ok, we did that and got action, and then we gave up.Simo's hand is wayyyyyy underrepped after the flop, so if you're going to check, I think you really have to go broke in this hand after the flop.If you just bet the flop, and he c/r you, you can be pretty sure you're beat, and then you aren't calling a pot bet on the turn with no idea where you are at.

[TB17 0]

Pretty sure I'm 4 betting PROBABLY going broke, 23/9 isnt that tight.Pretty sure I'm also donating to him on the river. But maybe I'm bad.

[Money022 0]

I think we need to fold or push turn.

Folding on the turn defeats the purpose of the checking on the flop to enduce a weaker holding to bet the turn.

[Metternich 0]

Ok, we did that and got action, and then we gave up.

Yeah, and if the turn was anything other than a jack or queen I would be all for going for broke here. But that jack often gave him a set, unless he has QQ or 1010. The turn bet is either a set of jacks, AA, AK, or a pair of Queens or tens betting because of our weakness on the flop. If we reraise the turn its going to commit us and we will only be getting calls from hands that beat us and won't be folding any stronger hands. If we call the turn and he bets the river we can be pretty sure we're beat and fold easily, if he has a hand we beat he'll c/f the river. Too many hands beat us after the jack calls to go broke on the turn, especially because there's nothing we beat that will call that could add value.

[simo_8ball 0]

A guy playing 23/9 is not a guy that generally reraises TT or AQ preflop. It's unlikely he has JJ either imo. His reraising range is JJ+,AK, with JJ discounted a little, imo.Even if I'm against a range of QQ+, AK, I'm still a 55/45 favourite on the flop. I don't want AK to push me off the hand, which can easily happen if I bet the flop. That's what I'm trying to avoid.Also, he probably bets JJ/QQ on the turn, and then likely calls a small value bet on the river. If I bet the flop there's less chance of me getting two streets of value.

[NonZeroPossibility 0]

Folding on the turn defeats the purpose of the checking on the flop to enduce a weaker holding to bet the turn.

Well if we just call turn, we're going to face an all-in on river, then what do we do?

[simo_8ball 0]

Well if we just call turn, we're going to face an all-in on river, then what do we do?

Yeah, I did think about folding the turn because I didn't think QQ would full pot there, but it seemed a little weak to just check and fold TPTK. On the river I either split with AK or I lose to AA, KK, JJ, and I didn't think AK was as likely to take that line as the others.

[00timh 0]

Folding on the turn defeats the purpose of the checking on the flop to enduce a weaker holding to bet the turn.

Good point here Money. The line here is fine IF you are looking for someone to get their money in but then when they do it is like OOPS... I know the plan was to get a bet off by check raising but since that didn't happen do we then give Villian credit? Still though, I do think JJ was the hand villian had. I don't see the remaining 30 just being a bluff or a lesser hand thinking they are good. , I think Villian just felt he wanted to make sure all of it got in the pot and that was the sure way to do it.

[simo_8ball 0]

Folding on the turn defeats the purpose of the checking on the flop to enduce a weaker holding to bet the turn.

Just to clarify, I'm not checking the flop to induce a bet from a weaker hand. I'm just trying to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.

[tskillz187 0]

If I'm going to play AK this passive I think I'd just muck it preflop. I think you played it kind of well for not 4betting, but I don't like it. If his range is as tight as you say it is, then even when you hit you aren't making any money because QQ shuts down, and AA or KK take a big pot from you (or like this hand, not so big). But, really none of the options look good.I'd rather shove (or 4 bet big I forget stack sizes now) pf and get some FE from JJ and below plus AK. Or just fold.

[simo_8ball 0]

I hate calling preflop here because I know his range is at most TT+,AK,AQs.But, folding AK to a single reraise in position seems too weak.If he had PFR>15 I'd probably just 4-bet preflop.

[AcesOnFire 0]

Just to clarify, I'm not checking the flop to induce a bet from a weaker hand. I'm just trying to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.

Why?How often has he 3 bet before?With an A/F of 2.4, I think he is liable to bet if he hit the flop with a hand like AK, checking here is unlike his normal behaviour. Either he is really scared of the K, or he wants you to be into him. Then he comes straight out and bets the Jack and puts it all in on the river, big overbet. I think he wants you to call. JJ/AA I think. Ugly.How come you are playing so low Simo? Weren't you playing 2/4 not so long ago?

[NoBBiR 0]

Just to clarify, I'm not checking the flop to induce a bet from a weaker hand. I'm just trying to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.

You really shouldn't be thinking about getting to showdown on the flop. Bet/folding is better than checking the flop and calling the turn. You just have absolutely no idea where you are at by c/cing. If you bet and he folds, oh well, you scoop. If you bet and he raises, you can be pretty sure you're chopping/losing 100%. It at least eliminates being bluffed out from the equation.

[simo_8ball 0]

How come you are playing so low Simo? Weren't you playing 2/4 not so long ago?

I was playing 3/6nl on Pacific a long while ago (I built my roll mostly from donkaments, but the cash games there were ubersoft). Then I withdrew a decent % of my roll for Uni expenses, and I played underrolled. I played badly too, and pretty much bustoed. Since then I've just never really taken the game seriously enough (probably played <50k hands last year), and I've withdrawn odd amounts here and there too often to be successful.I think I've finally got things together with my NL game (all but given up with PLO for now after a ridiculous 38 buyin downswing at $50pl), and after playing $50nl for the last week I'm close to moving up to $100nl again. Also, I've been offered a great backing deal for big tournaments, so I'm hoping for a decent score from that.Cliffnotes: I sucked at life, but I'm improving.

[NoBBiR 0]

I was playing 3/6nl on Pacific a long while ago (I built my roll mostly from donkaments, but the cash games there were ubersoft). Then I withdrew a decent % of my roll for Uni expenses, and I played underrolled. I played badly too, and pretty much bustoed. Since then I've just never really taken the game seriously enough (probably played <50k hands last year), and I've withdrawn odd amounts here and there too often to be successful.I think I've finally got things together with my NL game (all but given up with PLO for now after a ridiculous 38 buyin downswing at $50pl), and after playing $50nl for the last week I'm close to moving up to $100nl again. Also, I've been offered a great backing deal for big tournaments, so I'm hoping for a decent score from that.Cliffnotes: I sucked at life, but I'm improving.

38 buyin downswing. Puke.