Turning A Set 4-way

[simo_8ball 0]

Ok, well, part two of this comes on the turn. I think hero should have c/bet the flop, but whatever. This was a mate's hand, not mine.Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $1/$25 playersConverterStack sizes:Hero: $203CO: $180Button: $305.70SB: $138.90BB: $56.90Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with 8 8 Hero raises to $7, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: K 6 5 ($28, 4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.Turn: 8 ($28, 4 players)SB bets $14, BB folds, Hero raises to $38, Button raises to $62, SB raises all-in $131.9, Hero...No stats/reads - very early in the session.

[meservery 0]

Ok, well, part two of this comes on the turn. I think hero should have c/bet the flop, but whatever. This was a mate's hand, not mine.Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $1/$25 playersConverterStack sizes:Hero: $203CO: $180Button: $305.70SB: $138.90BB: $56.90Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with 8 8 Hero raises to $7, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: K 6 5 ($28, 4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.Turn: 8 ($28, 4 players)SB bets $14, BB folds, Hero raises to $38, Button raises to $62, SB raises all-in $131.9, Hero...No stats/reads - very early in the session.

god damn i'm good.

[Metternich 0]

pushes

[TB17 0]

shove and be happy, you're only dead against KK

[simo_8ball 0]

Give me some ranges people.

[krup24 0]

Hero simultaneouly kicks and punches himself for not betting the flopThen he sighsThen he calls

[TB17 0]

Give me some ranges people.

Hard to do that with no reads, assuming they have SB - Ad7d, A6d, 9Td 68s, 56s, 47s, 79s, 55, 66, AK? Button - KK, 66, 55, 79, 47, A7d, AK?Either way, there is no way you're folding, even if you're beat you still have outs. If both have anything but KK you have good equity

[simo_8ball 0]

"Button - KK, 66, 55, 79, 47, A7d, AK"I can't imagine AK being in his range. He probably reraises preflop, and noone would min-re-reraise that turn with AK.I can't imagine Ad7d doing that either. Or at least, very very rarely.I think 55 and 66 bet the flop most of the time in position, so we can discount those to some extent.KK would usually reraise preflop so we can discount that very heavily.Of course, he folds 74 preflop usually, and may bet the flop with that so that is to be discounted too.Button is the one we are potentially playing a $120 sidepot with here, and his is by far the stronger range here.EDIT: (if SB has 66, 55 or 56, and button has the straight, we are about 18%. If SB has K8/K6/K5 and button has a straight, we are about 14% to win the main pot.)

[Royal_Tour 0]

Hero simultaneouly kicks and punches himself for not betting the flopThen he sighsThen he calls

sighs????this entire hand is the perfect example of why poker is so fuuucked. Hero misplayed the hand according to fundamental theory for NL, got lucky hitting a set on the turn vs two other players with big hands.big hands that would have exploded on the flop if hero bet the flop instead of checking.this almost looks like a set, and maybe 2 pair.. or AK.. vs hero's set of 8's.

[Royal_Tour 0]

"Button - KK, 66, 55, 79, 47, A7d, AK"I can't imagine AK being in his range. He probably reraises preflop, and noone would min-re-reraise that turn with AK.I can't imagine Ad7d doing that either. Or at least, very very rarely.I think 55 and 66 bet the flop most of the time in position, so we can discount those to some extent.KK would usually reraise preflop so we can discount that very heavily.Of course, he folds 74 preflop usually, and may bet the flop with that so that is to be discounted too.Button is the one we are potentially playing a $120 sidepot with here, and his is by far the stronger range here.EDIT: (if SB has 66, 55 or 56, and button has the straight, we are about 18%. If SB has K8/K6/K5 and button has a straight, we are about 14% to win the main pot.)

buttons range is much more wide than anyone else. Not "stronger".button could be playing anything from 5,6 - AK, to maybe even 3d,4d. if he is aggro enough.

[simo_8ball 0]

buttons range is much more wide than anyone else. Not "stronger".button could be playing anything from 5,6 - AK, to maybe even 7,8s. if he is aggro enough.

If he's aggro enough to do that on the turn with those hands he's never checking the flop behind.

[Royal_Tour 0]

If he's aggro enough to do that on the turn with those hands he's never checking the flop behind.

in a 4 way pot that was raised pf. with a draw, Hell yes Id believe he checks a large portion of the time here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

shove and be happy, you're only dead against KK

QFT

[TB17 0]

buttons range is much more wide than anyone else. Not "stronger".button could be playing anything from 5,6 - AK, to maybe even 3d,4d. if he is aggro enough.

or KK to induce a squeeze

[Royal_Tour 0]

or KK to induce a squeeze

So, we've started to narrow down the reasons why you suck at poker . but on to this hand, and others in strat section.

[NoBBiR 0]

Give me some ranges people.

Omgwhocareswehasasetallinplz.I couldn't help myself.

[simo_8ball 0]

We can say for the button:a) He has the straightb) He has a draw now that he is overplaying by min-reraisingc) He has a made hand that he was slowplaying on the flopOk, so:a) It fits with the preflop call and the flop check. The minreraise for value fits perfectly on the turn.b) I really think is unlikely. Ok, if he has Ad7d then it's possible, but other than that it's just not plausible imo. If he had a big draw, he would be more likely to shove than minraise, so that discounts draws further. I think most would agree to this.c) Hmm. He doesn't reraise AK preflop, then he checks a multiway flop after hitting TPTK in position then goes crazy on that turn. I don't buy it. I really, do not buy it.He's checking behind with two pair or a set on that flop. That's pretty rare. Actually, I'll challenge anyone to find+post examples of slowplaying in position in a multiway pot. Hands like AA on an A72r flop doesn't count though. $5 on FT to anyone that can post 3 or more reasonable and relevant examples. If you're advocating that it's a decent % of his range, there should be a decent number of examples of it happening before.It's not % chance of made hand vs. % chance of gutshot here by straight combinations, because the gutshot is 95% likely to play the hand like this. The made hand is (I would generally assume) less than 10% likely to slowplay the flop.Please tell me if and where my reasoning is weak.(BTW, when I saw this hand I said bet the flop and shove the turn. I just think the turn decision is closer than you all seem to be saying. I think the button has the straight a pretty big % of the time.)

[AimHigher 0]

I would be instantly calling with little consideration to the hands that beat me. I am not scared of him having kings and I think if any semi competent Villain was going to slow play a flop, this would be the flop he'd do it on. Especially first to act OOP in a 4 way pot with a King on board.Edit: OOPS, I misread the action, I thought the SB shoved after we raised and the button was not involved.[re-evaluates]

[TB17 0]

We can say for the button:a) He has the straightb) He has a draw now that he is overplaying by min-reraisingc) He has a made hand that he was slowplaying on the flopOk, so:a) It fits with the preflop call and the flop check. The minreraise for value fits perfectly on the turn.b) I really think is unlikely. Ok, if he has Ad7d then it's possible, but other than that it's just not plausible imo. If he had a big draw, he would be more likely to shove than minraise, so that discounts draws further. I think most would agree to this.c) Hmm. He doesn't reraise AK preflop, then he checks a multiway flop after hitting TPTK in position then goes crazy on that turn. I don't buy it. I really, do not buy it.He's checking behind with two pair or a set on that flop. That's pretty rare. Actually, I'll challenge anyone to find+post examples of slowplaying in position in a multiway pot. Hands like AA on an A72r flop doesn't count though. $5 on FT to anyone that can post 3 or more reasonable and relevant examples. If you're advocating that it's a decent % of his range, there should be a decent number of examples of it happening before.It's not % chance of made hand vs. % chance of gutshot here by straight combinations, because the gutshot is 95% likely to play the hand like this. The made hand is (I would generally assume) less than 10% likely to slowplay the flop.Please tell me if and where my reasoning is weak.(BTW, when I saw this hand I said bet the flop and shove the turn. I just think the turn decision is closer than you all seem to be saying. I think the button has the straight a pretty big % of the time.)

What about a hand like bottom pair that spiked 2 pair? Maybe not K8...but I think 58 and 68 are pretty likely and it makes sense to see the freecard.It's very reasonable for 66-55 to check that flop. It's quite dry. Theres only 2 hands that have more than 4 outs. I wouldn't do it, but I don't think it it's 5%Again, people do some weird things online. I think AK is more likely to be in SB's range, but I do agree it's not really likely, I think KK is more likely than AK in Button's spot. But both are quite unlikely.Does he really have 79/47 90% of the time? I don't think so. If I know he has 79 I'm still not folding though. We will have at worst 7 outs if SB doesnt have KK. I dunno, I think folding in this spot is quite criminal. unless you have dead on reads that he bets out his sets 100% of the time.

[NoBBiR 0]

What about a hand like bottom pair that spiked 2 pair? Maybe not K8...but I think 58 and 68 are pretty likely and it makes sense to see the freecard.It's very reasonable for 66-55 to check that flop. It's quite dry. Theres only 2 hands that have more than 4 outs. I wouldn't do it, but I don't think it it's 5%Again, people do some weird things online. I think AK is more likely to be in SB's range, but I do agree it's not really likely, I think KK is more likely than AK in Button's spot. But both are quite unlikely.Does he really have 79/47 90% of the time? I don't think so. If I know he has 79 I'm still not folding though. We will have at worst 7 outs if SB doesnt have KK. I dunno, I think folding in this spot is quite criminal. unless you have dead on reads that he bets out his sets 100% of the time.

Exactly. Despite the fact that one of the them has a straight a decent amount of the time, I just do not think it is even remotely close to being often enough to find a fold.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Exactly. Despite the fact that one of the them has a straight a decent amount of the time, I just do not think it is even remotely close to being often enough to find a fold.

How could someone fold second set on the turn with a faintly coordinated board with the only card over T being a K and we didn't get raraised with 4 people in PF when we raised UTG?

[AimHigher 0]

Reasons we cannot fold, and must shove:1. We don't fold sets. FCP NLHE Forum commandment.2. We may have the SB beat and the button may fold behind us.3. If we shove and the button calls, we could quite possibly have him beat.4. If the button DOES have the straight, and the SB has a set we have 8 outs to win the side pot with the button.

[NoBBiR 0]

Reasons we cannot fold, and must shove:1. We don't fold sets. FCP NLHE Forum commandment.

Find me a set anywhere, and I'll get all my money in with it.Oh wait, I don't flop sets, nevermind.

[simo_8ball 0]

Hero folded.SB had 5h6h (props to meservery for clairvoyance).Button had 7d4d.I wouldn't have folded, but I do think it's a close decision, and folding could easily be correct.When we were discussing it, 'Hero' said he felt that the button's line was immensely strong, and he folded the set pretty quickly.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Hero folded.SB had 5h6h (props to meservery for clairvoyance).Button had 7d4d.I wouldn't have folded, but I do think it's a close decision, and folding could easily be correct.When we were discussing it, 'Hero' said he felt that the button's line was immensely strong, and he folded the set pretty quickly.

River: K FOCK !!!!