Why Did Gus Check The River?

[gilbertology 0]

This has been bothering me all day. What hands could he have put Daniel on where checking and then raising a bet would be more +ev than betting out and possibly reraising all-in? Remember Gus bet out on the turn. I don't see Daniel value betting QQ-AA on the river, but a medium sized bet by Gus could possibly get a call by a high pair. If he put Daniel on 66 or 99 I'm pretty sure all the money would go in no matter what. Would dn just call a half-sized bet by Gus on the river with 66 instead of raise? It's gamblin Gus for goodness sakes.

[keith crime 8]

This has been bothering me all day. What hands could he have put Daniel on where checking and then raising a bet would be more +ev than betting out and possibly reraising all-in? Remember Gus bet out on the turn. I don't see Daniel value betting QQ-AA on the river, but a medium sized bet by Gus could possibly get a call by a high pair. If he put Daniel on 66 or 99 I'm pretty sure all the money would go in no matter what. Would dn just call a half-sized bet by Gus on the river with 66 instead of raise? It's gamblin Gus for goodness sakes.

daniel showed strength the entire hand why wouldnt he value bet at the end

[xtxoxpxd 0]

daniel showed strength the entire hand why wouldnt he value bet at the end

he bet and called a check raise, then called the turn bet. this = strength? or at least, strength that would value bet a river?

[gilbertology 0]

Daniel just called Gus' turn bet, deceptive but not necessarily a show of strength. What hand would DN valuebet on the river with the possible straight out there(from Gus perspective)? Basically, what hand could dn have and what hand could he put Gus on where he could bet and expect Gus to just call with(again from Gus'a perspective trying to get into Daniel's head, i think, wait im confused now)?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

he bet and called a check raise, then called the turn bet. this = strength? or at least, strength that would value bet a river?

Actually, massive strength. Truly consider the board texture, Gus' possible holdings, Daniel's possible holdings, Gus' table image, Daniel being in position, and Gus C/ring the flop, leading the turn, and getting called in both spots.Hope that helps.Oh, and, it's my contention that the only way Gus gets all his money in/paid off on this hand is to check the river..discuss.

[gilbertology 0]

Oh, and, it's my contention that the only way Gus gets all his money in/paid off on this hand is to check the river..discuss.

This could be why he checked, if he indeed put Daniel on two 6s or two 9s, but would Daniel not raise a half-pot size bet on the river with either of these two hands? He had disguised his hand imo until then, and in a blog he said he played it like qq-aa. So if he thought Gus was thinking this, Gus could be betting into him with a straight or less likely a lower fh. In fact, if Gus bet out I think you'd put him on a straight more than half the time. This is a hand he'd probly bet out and consider calling a raise with on the river. Then again, a raise by daniel on the river may not be +ev because Gus either has the str8, which he might not call a raise with, or he's bluffing and won't call a raise, or he has dn beat, in which case raising is -ev. Daniel, if you read this, if Gus had fired a 3/8 pot bet on the river would you have just called or raised? Does the size of Gus's possible bet factor into your decision, ie a 1/4 pot bet compared to a 1/2 pot bet.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

This could be why he checked, if he indeed put Daniel on two 6s or two 9s, but would Daniel not raise a half-pot size bet on the river with either of these two hands? He had disguised his hand imo until then, and in a blog he said he played it like qq-aa. So if he thought Gus was thinking this, Gus could be betting into him with a straight or less likely a lower fh. In fact, if Gus bet out I think you'd put him on a straight more than half the time. This is a hand he'd probly bet out and consider calling a raise with on the river. Then again, a raise by daniel on the river may not be +ev because Gus either has the str8, which he might not call a raise with, or he's bluffing and won't call a raise, or he has dn beat, in which case raising is -ev.

If Gus open pushes, DN likely folds to the massive overbet. If Gus makes a 1/2 pot to pot size bet, I would think--and I might be wrong--that Daniel would just call. The only boat he's beating is 58, 59 or 56, at that point.Look at it from Gus' perspective. He knows that Daniel's strong. If Daniel flopped a straight, he'd likely have raised the turn to see where he was at, with the board pairing. An overpair is pretty well out of the question when Daniel flat-calls the turn, so Gus can be fairly certain at this point Daniel has a boat of some kind.And what do we do on the river, against a LAGgy opponent who checks to us after betting the flop and turn, when we have a boat? We value bet. Gus had to know Daniel would bet the river.He knows that Daniel views him as someone who can bet with air or the nuts. If he checks the river it A) looks like he's giving up on a bluff or B) trying to keep the pot small to call a river value-bet with a vulnerable hand. I would think Daniel put Gus on a hand like, 75, on that flop. Pair + straight draw that turned trips. He knew Gus was strong, but, obviously not that strong. The check/raise on the river, well, that's a sick play. Well played by both, really. I've heard argument that Daniel could've gotten away from it, and maybe, maybe he could. But, not against Gus, and not for that pot size. Tough spot. That's all just my humble opinion though.

[keith crime 8]

I suppose it depends on how strong gus thought daniel was - if he had a decent read on him you know gus played it perfectly because if you watch DN's head snap back when gus said all in - Daniel was shocked by gus' raise and thought when he originally bet that he had gus slaughtered

[matt21sz 0]

I thought both of them played the hand very well. I thought the river check by Gus was brilliant, based on his read of our boy Daniel. I've had the guts to check quads on the river only once that I can remember...into someone I had pegged as very strong. Sure enough he checks down his flopped TP/TK and I miss a possible value bet.As far as getting away from this hand...there is no way Daniel can get away from it against Gus. Any other player at the table, maybe, but not Gus.

[keith crime 8]

I thought both of them played the hand very well. I thought the river check by Gus was brilliant, based on his read of our boy Daniel. I've had the guts to check quads on the river only once that I can remember...into someone I had pegged as very strong. Sure enough he checks down his flopped TP/TK and I miss a possible value bet.As far as getting away from this hand...there is no way Daniel can get away from it against Gus. Any other player at the table, maybe, but not Gus.

i don't really understand all the not against gus comments - gus is loose and makes questionable risky calls but i'm not familiar with him making too many nutty all in raises

[DanielNegreanu 141]

You gentlemen are missing one little bit of information that was the absolute key to the hand. Gus Made it 2100, and I made a goofy small raise to 5000. People just don't make that goofy raise with mid-pairs. My re-raise looked a lot more like AA KK or QQ than it did 66 99 or 88. I spoke to Gus about the hand, and he put me on an over pair the whole way. His check on the river had me baffled. The reason he did that, though, was because he thought I was more likely to value bet the river with AA than to call a bet on the river with AA. It was a strange, strange, check to say the least, but it was the pre-flop play that got me.

[keith crime 8]

You gentlemen are missing one little bit of information that was the absolute key to the hand. Gus Made it 2100, and I made a goofy small raise to 5000. People just don't make that goofy raise with mid-pairs. My re-raise looked a lot more like AA KK or QQ than it did 66 99 or 88. I spoke to Gus about the hand, and he put me on an over pair the whole way. His check on the river had me baffled. The reason he did that, though, was because he thought I was more likely to value bet the river with AA than to call a bet on the river with AA. It was a strange, strange, check to say the least, but it was the pre-flop play that got me.

did you think at all about laying it down?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I'm curious about why you'd make such a small raise preflop. An inexpensive way of building a pot for when you hit a set? To inflate the value of your hand in your opponent's eyes so you can represent a bigger hand post-flop? You obviously don't expect him to lay any two cards down..so?Just curious.

[gilbertology 0]

I spoke to Gus about the hand, and he put me on an over pair the whole way. His check on the river had me baffled. The reason he did that, though, was because he thought I was more likely to value bet the river with AA than to call a bet on the river with AA.

Thanks for sharing Daniel, if I ever go against Gus I'll be all over his game.

I'm curious about why you'd make such a small raise preflop. An inexpensive way of building a pot for when you hit a set? To inflate the value of your hand in your opponent's eyes so you can represent a bigger hand post-flop? You obviously don't expect him to lay any two cards down..so?Just curious.

And to be deceptive. You don't want your opponent to be able to narrow down your range of hands, or if he does, for it to be the wrong range of hands.

[keith crime 8]

I'm curious about why you'd make such a small raise preflop. An inexpensive way of building a pot for when you hit a set? To inflate the value of your hand in your opponent's eyes so you can represent a bigger hand post-flop? You obviously don't expect him to lay any two cards down..so?Just curious.

well he did get antonio's AQ out of the hand who seemed to not want anything to do with either of those two maniacs

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

well he did get antonio's AQ out of the hand who seemed to not want anything to do with either of those two maniacs

Bad laydown.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I'm curious about why you'd make such a small raise preflop. An inexpensive way of building a pot for when you hit a set? To inflate the value of your hand in your opponent's eyes so you can represent a bigger hand post-flop? You obviously don't expect him to lay any two cards down..so?Just curious.

Just random deception mostly. Also, in the hopes that a board may come something like 6-4-4 and being up against a 4... stuff like that.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Just random deception mostly. Also, in the hopes that a board may come something like 6-4-4 and being up against a 4... stuff like that.

Or 965 and be up against 55? I do similar things, but, usually my raise it larger, so I was curious. Makes sense though. Thank you, sir.

[sdnuol 0]

IMO he knew daniel had a made hand. he also knew daniel could be capable of laying down a small fh if he was to bet. thats why i think he check-raised

[choic 0]

I actually thought both players played the hand fairly poorly. Mind you, at those kind of stakes, the pro's are thinking at a much higher level. But I still believe that they were being too cute with the hand, alot of money could of been in the pot on the flop if they weren't so sneaky. Set over set is hard to get away from.Preflop-Gus raises, DN baby raises with a mid pair in position. Normally DN just calls cause that's his style and other players know that, he calls alot to see flops. DN looks to be represesnting an over pair. I also like that play cause it buys DN the button and gives him a better chance to win the pot headsup. If DN just calls, it invites others to play. The isolation raise kicks out the other players, a hand like at,a9,kj etc... cannot call a raise and re-raise.Flop-965. Most players will check and slow play, don't like that cause you can lose at alot action. What if the player checks behind you. In the long run, you'll win a bigger pot cause you've built one. Slow playing will keep the pot small and more often than not, you won't be able to trap the other player. Gus check raises DN and DN just flat calls. DN could've played right back cause Gus is putting him on an overpair not on a set. What if the turn came an action killer like 7 or 8? Gus may have flopped a straight cause he is certainly capable of calling a re-raise with a connector but flat calling here is losing alot of dough. If Gus had nothing, he probably would've given up on the pot.Turn-5. DN fills up and Gus makes quads. Bet-call. Why call? Again, if you are representing an overpair your boat is well hidden and Gus can only beat you with a set of 9's. Putting your opponent on speficically quads is pretty amazing. Calling was a bad play IMO. I know many disagree.River-8. Gus checks which was absolutely pathetic. You have to put DN on a straight draw to check that river. DN will check behind if he has an overpair like aces or kings. Looking at the holecards we think that the check was a great play cause we know what DN had. The check on the river was definitely, -EV. DN value bets thinking he had the best hand which was the correct play. Gets check raised all in. DN now has almost (not quite) 4-1 to call the 160k re-raise with the third nuts. (you can't put Gus on pocket eights here, no way he would play pocket eights like that) DN can only beat a bluff or a straight. Will he play a straight like that? Not likely. So you have to think he either has 99, 55 or bluffing. Would Gus be bluffing on this hand with such a big pot? How the hand played out there is no way of Gus is bluffing here. Now it seems like an easy fold, but are we able to lay this down? This is such a tough spot I don't blame DN for calling.Gus should've got all his money in on the earlier streets, he played this hand wrong and weird. But hey, that's his style and that's why he's good. His plays are wacky and unpredictable. I have studied alot of Gus hands watching old WPT shows. He plays the turn and river very careful by checking alot or check calling alot. The only times he goes nutty is calling off preflop with the worst of it or calling all ins (for all his chips) and getting the right price even if he knows he is 35% to win. Very interesting style.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

IMO he knew daniel had a made hand. he also knew daniel could be capable of laying down a small fh if he was to bet. thats why i think he check-raised

Nothing personal bro, but your read couldn't be more wrong. Gus definitely put me on a big overpair. There is no way he thought I hit that board, no chance at all... ask him.

[mrdannyg 274]

Nothing personal bro, but your read couldn't be more wrong. Gus definitely put me on a big overpair. There is no way he thought I hit that board, no chance at all... ask him.

actually, i agree with sdnuol. I know that Gus put you on a made hand, since his check could be interpreted that way. It is silly of you to argue differently, just because it makes more sense, and you know what he actually was thinking. It is pretty clear that he put you on a made hand.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I actually thought both players played the hand fairly poorly. Mind you, at those kind of stakes, the pro's are thinking at a much higher level. But I still believe that they were being too cute with the hand, alot of money could of been in the pot on the flop if they weren't so sneaky. Set over set is hard to get away from.Preflop-Gus raises, DN baby raises with a mid pair in position. Normally DN just calls cause that's his style and other players know that, he calls alot to see flops. DN looks to be represesnting an over pair. I also like that play cause it buys DN the button and gives him a better chance to win the pot headsup. If DN just calls, it invites others to play. The isolation raise kicks out the other players, a hand like at,a9,kj etc... cannot call a raise and re-raise.Flop-965. Most players will check and slow play, don't like that cause you can lose at alot action. What if the player checks behind you. In the long run, you'll win a bigger pot cause you've built one. Slow playing will keep the pot small and more often than not, you won't be able to trap the other player. Gus check raises DN and DN just flat calls. DN could've played right back cause Gus is putting him on an overpair not on a set. What if the turn came an action killer like 7 or 8? Gus may have flopped a straight cause he is certainly capable of calling a re-raise with a connector but flat calling here is losing alot of dough. If Gus had nothing, he probably would've given up on the pot.Turn-5. DN fills up and Gus makes quads. Bet-call. Why call? Again, if you are representing an overpair your boat is well hidden and Gus can only beat you with a set of 9's. Putting your opponent on speficically quads is pretty amazing. Calling was a bad play IMO. I know many disagree.River-8. Gus checks which was absolutely pathetic. You have to put DN on a straight draw to check that river. DN will check behind if he has an overpair like aces or kings. Looking at the holecards we think that the check was a great play cause we know what DN had. The check on the river was definitely, -EV. DN value bets thinking he had the best hand which was the correct play. Gets check raised all in. DN now has almost (not quite) 4-1 to call the 160k re-raise with the third nuts. (you can't put Gus on pocket eights here, no way he would play pocket eights like that) DN can only beat a bluff or a straight. Will he play a straight like that? Not likely. So you have to think he either has 99, 55 or bluffing. Would Gus be bluffing on this hand with such a big pot? How the hand played out there is no way of Gus is bluffing here. Now it seems like an easy fold, but are we able to lay this down? This is such a tough spot I don't blame DN for calling.Gus should've got all his money in on the earlier streets, he played this hand wrong and weird. But hey, that's his style and that's why he's good. His plays are wacky and unpredictable. I have studied alot of Gus hands watching old WPT shows. He plays the turn and river very careful by checking alot or check calling alot. The only times he goes nutty is calling off preflop with the worst of it or calling all ins (for all his chips) and getting the right price even if he knows he is 35% to win. Very interesting style.

Not quite. My call on the flop was a safe play with a straight on board. If you don't believe Gus could have 7-8.. well, nevermind. Also, the call on the turn was an excellent play, especially with the extra long pause. Remember, I was selling an over pair. By doing that, he may bluff at the river, ESPECIALLY if the river card is a straight card. If Gus has 9-10 for example, that 8 on the river may give him incentive to bluff off another 50-60K. By raising him on the turn, he would now KNOW that I don't have an over pair. The only hand he'd play past that point is a straight, trip 5's, a full house, or quads. Re-raising the turn with the third nuts would have actually been a poor play considering how deep the stacks were. His river check worked. His read was dead wrong, as was his thinking, but I never gave him credit for quads when he did that.

actually, i agree with sdnuol. I know that Gus put you on a made hand, since his check could be interpreted that way. It is silly of you to argue differently, just because it makes more sense, and you know what he actually was thinking. It is pretty clear that he put you on a made hand.

No, no, and... no, lol. There is precisely 0% chance that Gus put me on a made hand. He put me on the exact hand I was representing, an over pair. If he put me on a made hand, like a straight or a flush, he would bet out for sure hoping that I raise him. Trust me on this one, there is no way he put me on a made hand at any point... watch it again.

[sdnuol 0]

Nothing personal bro, but your read couldn't be more wrong. Gus definitely put me on a big overpair. There is no way he thought I hit that board, no chance at all... ask him.

wish i could ask him.just a question. why would he check to you on the end if he had you on just an overpair?edit:nvm i saw another post you madeand i think i get it

[gilbertology 0]

So Daniel, what would you have done had Gus bet out that river? Raise, or call.