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Deuces Wild


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#21 Dubey

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 08:36 PM

View Postmtdesmoines, on Sunday, November 4th, 2007, 5:55 PM, said:

I floated a dude the other night like this and ... oooops ... he had KK.
I can't believe so many people advocate a call here.There is a bet, and a call preflop, then the villain makes a healthy reraise from the big blind. This is AK/AQ sometimes. More often it is TT+.Some of the time, when the villain has AK/AQ, he will still fire a third bullet on the turn, forcing you to fold the best hand. Sometimes, an A,K,Q, or 5 will come on the turn, and you will no longer have the best hand.So, you still end up losing the hand a lot of the time that you do have the best hand on this flop. And, I don't think you have the best hand here very often.Add the times that the villain checks the turn with his big pair, costing you additional money on the turn, and this is a very -ev flop call long term. I don't even think it is close.

#22 navybuttons

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 10:49 AM

i don't know what people are talking about in this thread. i think 10:1 implied odds make this preflop call okay. this would be one of the rare spots i would call a flop bet in a 3bet pot w/ a small pair.betting that turn is lighting money on fire IMO.
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#23 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:03 AM

This play is fine. WP
QUOTE (NoBBiR @ Monday, August 11th, 2008, 7:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#24 Acid_Knight

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:37 AM

View Postnavybuttons, on Monday, November 5th, 2007, 10:49 AM, said:

i don't know what people are talking about in this thread. i think 10:1 implied odds make this preflop call okay. this would be one of the rare spots i would call a flop bet in a 3bet pot w/ a small pair.betting that turn is lighting money on fire IMO.
10:1 implied odds is fine, yeah. Who says we have 10-1? He's not stacking off with AK/AQ after missing the flop. He's not stacking off with QQ-TT on an A94 or A35 flop. Implied odds must take into consideration the likelyhood of actually getting the money from his stack into the pot when we outflop him. I think it's cutting it close because we're only hitting about 1/9 times and we need to stack him 1/11 times, so it really means that we have to take his whole (or most of his) stack when we do hit, assuming we're not putting any money in when we miss. 10-1 implied odds in this situation is wrong IMHO.Also, calling the flop is horrible if you're set mining. I mentioned this before, but it totally kills our implied odds in the first place if we're gonna float him on this flop. Yeah, we might have the best hand, but we're never calling another bet, so we're basically daring him to take 2 stabs at it with unimproved overs.Folding preflop here, if it is a mistake (against AK/AQ type hands) is only a small one, while calling against bigger pairs that you're not guaranteed to stack is a bigger mistake which is compounded by more mistakes post flop, like calling a flop bet and having to make another decision on the turn here.

#25 navybuttons

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:55 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Monday, November 5th, 2007, 11:37 AM, said:

10:1 implied odds is fine, yeah. Who says we have 10-1? He's not stacking off with AK/AQ after missing the flop. He's not stacking off with QQ-TT on an A94 or A35 flop. Implied odds must take into consideration the likelyhood of actually getting the money from his stack into the pot when we outflop him. I think it's cutting it close because we're only hitting about 1/9 times and we need to stack him 1/11 times, so it really means that we have to take his whole (or most of his) stack when we do hit, assuming we're not putting any money in when we miss. 10-1 implied odds in this situation is wrong IMHO.
i use 10:1 behind as a general rule when calling a 3-bet. i'm sure it's not perfect, but i think it's pretty sound. of course folding is fine.

View PostAcid_Knight, on Monday, November 5th, 2007, 11:37 AM, said:

Also, calling the flop is horrible if you're set mining. I mentioned this before, but it totally kills our implied odds in the first place if we're gonna float him on this flop.
if were ever gonna call with unders this is the flop. folding is probably better, but a lot of people misplay 3-bet pots and i could see overs shutting down a lot here.

View PostAcid_Knight, on Monday, November 5th, 2007, 11:37 AM, said:

Folding preflop here, if it is a mistake (against AK/AQ type hands) is only a small one, while calling against bigger pairs that you're not guaranteed to stack is a bigger mistake which is compounded by more mistakes post flop, like calling a flop bet and having to make another decision on the turn here.
what decision? i think we can play the turn nearly perfect here.
if you're not playing the notes in front of you it's not mozart.

#26 Acid_Knight

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 01:03 PM

View Postnavybuttons, on Monday, November 5th, 2007, 11:55 AM, said:

what decision? i think we can play the turn nearly perfect here.
Bet or check. One is a mistake and one isn't.Each move we make impacts the rest of the hand. One wrong decision forces us to play another street and go through another round of betting where we've already made a mistake and are trying not to make another.The turn is a check here and you fold to a river bet.

#27 navybuttons

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 02:03 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Monday, November 5th, 2007, 1:03 PM, said:

The turn is a check here and you fold to a river bet.
yep. as i said, betting this turn is terrible IMO. however, i would bet or raise an 8h turn 90% of the time.
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