k-10 off at pacific 5/10 l h e

[ddudley 0]

OK, as many of you know I'm been having a lot of trouble with my game lately, so I'm going to try out this posting hands thing... this one is from tonight.First problem... where can I convert my pacific poker hands? The hand converter doesn't work for pacific so, you'll just have to muddle through it for now.WE ARE NOT HERE TO DISCUSS PREFLOP PLAY ON THIS PARTICULAR HAND. If you want to weight in on that subject I've put a pole at the top. You can vote but there is no need to discuss that part of the hand any further. As you will see it's been beaten to death already. Let's try to focus on the post-flop play.***** Pacific Hand History for Game 2025503746 *****$5/$10 Limit Hold'em - *** 09 28 18:34:14 2005Table Cosmopolitan (Real Money)Seat 9 is the buttonTotal number of players : 10Seat 10: SanchoHH ( $361.49 )Seat 1: CRbomb ( $544 )Seat 2: chuch211 ( $278.9 )Seat 3: TexasWoo ( $592 )Seat 4: mmmmm420 ( $164.5 )Seat 5: roy46ca ( $168.5 )Seat 6: Feldy10 ( $148.1 )Seat 7: ddudley ( $210 )Seat 8: hogrule ( $172.8 )Seat 9: Toast001 ( $29.5 )SanchoHH posts small blind [$2].CRbomb posts big blind [$5].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to ddudley [ 10h Ks ]chuch211 calls [$5].TexasWoo calls [$5].mmmmm420 calls [$5].roy46ca folds.Feldy10 folds.ddudley calls [$5].hogrule calls [$5].Toast001 calls [$5].SanchoHH raises [$8].CRbomb calls [$5].chuch211 calls [$5].TexasWoo calls [$5].mmmmm420 calls [$5].ddudley calls [$5].hogrule calls [$5].Toast001 calls [$5].The 2 players behind me are the 2 worst players at the table and are both very likely to play no matter what action I take. The blinds are the 2 tightest players at the table and are not going to raise in an 7-8 way pot unless they have AA, KK or QQ. When I limped I was 90% sure I would end up 7-8 way unraised.VP$IP:hogrule = 57% in 36 handsToast001 = 72% in 125 handsSanchoHH = 8.2% in 61 handsCRbomb = 27% in 195 hands but seems to be playing much tighter in this session** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, 10s, 6s ]SanchoHH bets [$5].CRbomb folds.chuch211 calls [$5].TexasWoo calls [$5].mmmmm420 raises [$10].If my reads are correct at the point, SanchoHH (TPP) has an over pair of some sort, he might have A-K but I doubt it. Mmmmm420 (SLAP) has a 6 or at least he's representing a 6. It's possible he has a 10 or is just making a move on a really big pot cause he thinks he can move Sancho off his overpair and is assuming everone will fold behind him. I'm not really worried about anyone else having a better hand at this point. In fact I'm pretty sure Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb will both call again with no pair and no draw.ddudley calls [$10].hogrule calls [$10].Toast001 calls [$10].SanchoHH calls [$5].chuch211 folds.TexasWoo calls [$5].I was playing at a fast table (12 seconds to act) so I didn't have time to calculate all the pot odds and implied odds but it seemed like an ok call at the time, based on the fact the pot was going to be at least $130 after this round of betting.Now that I've had time to look it up and think about the hand I think I needed 22-1 to take one card off with 2 outs left in the deck. So, in retropect I'm pretty sure it was a bad call. Anyone disagree? What about the 3 other Ks? Should I count those or not? If we are counting 5 outs then I needed 9-1 to take one card off and I was getting at least 12-1 at the time of my call and it turned out better than that at 14.5-1.EDIT: I moved this stuff up from a lower post because I thought it was important stuff to be thinking about:It all comes down to how many if any of the K out I can count. That all depends on the accuracy of my reads on mmmmm420. Let's say 70% he has a 6, 15% he has a 10 with a lower kicker, 5% he has a 10 with an A kicker and 10% he's making a move on a big pot with 2 over cards like K-J or Q-J. So let say there is a 30% chance the K's are good outs. So lets count 1 of 3 K's as good that gives me 1 K and 2 10s for 3 outs and around 15:1 so maybe I'm getting implied odds to take 1 card off? With the above assumptions there is a 20% chance I'd be splitting the pot with mmmmm420. The is also some small chance, say 10%, that Sancho has K-K. Those 2 assumptions are not accounted for at this point.

[Canada 0]

Given that the pot is huge and you hold the Ks I'd be in raise or fold mode. I think 3 betting here is best if you think the CO and button are likely to fold.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Wow Dudley... This hand sucks...Given your reads.. if they're accurate, you want to fold.If you might be wrong... Calling a small bet in a huge pot is never very wrong, that's one way to look at it.

[speedz99 145]

Ok, I have some questions/comments.1. Why are you limping with K10 offsuit? Blech. Personally, the only thing I'll do with that hand is raise in very late position if there is only one or two limpers before me.2. How do you read the SB for an overpair or AK? Is he really just completing with that preflop?3. You need to reraise that flop if you're going to keep playing. Get some information, get rid of some overcards, etc.

[jayboogie 0]

Definitely some serious leaks being shown in this hand alone. KT offsuit, limping with this hand is not exactly ideal without good position. It's an easily dominated hand and if it's not suited, you have no flush potential either. Your flop play is either a re-raise or fold, there's no such thing as a call here. If you think you have the best hand, you raise, otherwise fold. I'd defintely lean towards folding, if your behind here, your in very bad shape and drawing extremely slim. I also think your probably way behind here.

[ddudley 0]

Ok, I have some questions/comments.1. Why are you limping with K10 offsuit? Blech. Personally, the only thing I'll do with that hand is raise in very late position if there is only one or two limpers before me.2. How do you read the SB for an overpair or AK? Is he really just completing with that preflop?3. You need to reraise that flop if you're going to keep playing. Get some information, get rid of some overcards, etc.

1. I limp with this hand cause it sucks and I knew it was going to be a big multi-way pot. Usually if I raise I get called by a hand that has K-10 dominated then I flop top pair and lose a lot of money. I'm really looking to flop an OESD or fold.2. The small blind is very tight and raised in what he knew was going to be an 7-8 way pot. What would you put him on?3. I was pretty sure I was in 3rd place at the time and needed a 10 to win. I guess if I'm going ot take 2 cards off I need 11-1 to call. I knew I'd have more than that in the pot when the flop betting was done.

[akishore 0]

2. How do you read the SB for an overpair or AK? Is he really just completing with that preflop?

he raised.aseem

[akishore 0]

Definitely some serious leaks being shown in this hand alone. KT offsuit, limping with this hand is not exactly ideal without good position. It's an easily dominated hand and if it's not suited, you have no flush potential either. Your flop play is either a re-raise or fold, there's no such thing as a call here. If you think you have the best hand, you raise, otherwise fold. I'd defintely lean towards folding, if your behind here, your in very bad shape and drawing extremely slim. I also think your probably way behind here.

this is the best reply, dudley.aseem

[speedz99 145]

2.  How do you read the SB for an overpair or AK?  Is he really just completing with that preflop?

he raised.aseem

my bad...misread

[speedz99 145]

1.  I limp with this hand cause it sucks and I knew it was going to be a big multi-way pot.  Usually if I raise I get called by a hand that has K-10 dominated then I flop top pair and lose a lot of money.  I'm really looking to flop an OESD or fold.

Definately fold...I meant raise only if there is very little action to you (one limper maybe) and you are CO or button. That's pretty standard.

[ddudley 0]

Wow Dudley... This hand sucks...Given your reads.. if they're accurate, you want to fold.If you might be wrong... Calling a small bet in a huge pot is never very wrong, that's one way to look at it.

This hand sucks because I played it so poorly or it's a tough decision?Based on the way the rest of the hand played out, I'm pretty sure my reads were 100% accurate. But, at the time there is no way I can know that and you should never assume your reads are 100% accurate. At the time I was thinking there was some chance that my K outs were good. Wheather I should count that as 0, 1 , 2 or 3, I didn't know.Here's a reconstruction of my thought process:I'm playing another table at the same time so I don't really know how much is in the pot right now but I know it's big and going to get a lot bigger by the end of this round. I'm pretty sure I don't have the best hand, so raising would be pretty dumb. I'm 90% sure Sancho has an overpair. I now have 5 seconds left to act... and at this point I have to press a button or time is going to run out.If I had 5 minutes to make a decision it would have gone something like this. It all comes down to how many if any of the K out I can count. That all depends on the accuracy of my reads on mmmmm420. Let's say 70% he has a 6, 15% he has a 10 with a lower kicker, 5% he has a 10 with an A kicker and 10% he's making a move on a big pot with 2 over cards like K-J or Q-J. So let say there is a 30% chance the K's are good outs. So lets count 1 of 3 K's as good that gives me 1 K and 2 10s for 3 outs and around 15:1 so I'm getting implied odds to take 1 card off.With the above assumptions there is a 20% chance I'd be splitting the pot with mmmmm420. The is also some small chance, say 10%, that Sancho has K-K. Those 2 assumptions are not accounted for at this point.The bottom line is there is no human on the face of the earth that could account for all of these variables in 12 seconds while playing another table at the same time. It felt wrong to raise based on that fact that either Sancho or mmmmm420 has me beat. It felt right to make the call based on 2-5 outs and a huge pot.

[ddudley 0]

Definitely some serious leaks being shown in this hand alone. KT offsuit, limping with this hand is not exactly ideal without good position. It's an easily dominated hand and if it's not suited, you have no flush potential either. Your flop play is either a re-raise or fold, there's no such thing as a call here. If you think you have the best hand, you raise, otherwise fold. I'd defintely lean towards folding, if your behind here, your in very bad shape and drawing extremely slim. I also think your probably way behind here.

So what do you do with K-10o when 3 people have limped in front of you? fold?The 2 players behind me are the 2 worst players at the table and are both very likely to play no matter what action I take. The blinds are the 2 tightest players at the table and are not going to raise in an 7-8 way pot unless they have AA, KK or QQ. When I limped I was 90% sure I would end up 7-8 way unraised.Based on that information is this still a bad limp?

[akishore 0]

Definitely some serious leaks being shown in this hand alone. KT offsuit, limping with this hand is not exactly ideal without good position. It's an easily dominated hand and if it's not suited, you have no flush potential either. Your flop play is either a re-raise or fold, there's no such thing as a call here. If you think you have the best hand, you raise, otherwise fold. I'd defintely lean towards folding, if your behind here, your in very bad shape and drawing extremely slim. I also think your probably way behind here.

So what do you do with K-10o when 3 people have limped in front of you? fold?The 2 players behind me are the 2 worst players at the table and are both very likely to play no matter what action I take. The blinds are the 2 tightest players at the table and are not going to raise in an 7-8 way pot unless they have AA, KK or QQ. When I limped I was 90% sure I would end up 7-8 way unraised.Based on that information is this still a bad limp?

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.aseem

[ddudley 0]

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.aseem

Aseem,I repect your opinion so I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You would have limped or folded preflop?

[kaisersoze12 0]

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.aseem

Aseem,I repect your opinion so I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You would have limped or folded preflop?

You cannot call pre-flop here. I don't really care how bad the two behind me are, if I am entering this pot it is for a raise when I am two off the button. I want option of first action on the flop that also has a chance to complete the action. A SB re-raise really puts me on the defensive, but if I did raise this pot, was re-raised by the SB and saw this flop, I would also raise the flop. Both time, you had raise or fold options. Calling the worst choice in both scenarios.K-10 off is just too hard to win without thinning the opponents when you have a decent chance to. In fact the SB three-betting (if you raised) AK is the best thing that can happen for your hand here. SB three bets, clears a little field, continues out on the flop with ace high and you get to raise with top pair.BUT, if I were playing here I probably would've dropped the K-10 pre-flop.

[speedz99 145]

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.aseem

Aseem,I repect your opinion so I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You would have limped or folded preflop?

He is saying to fold preflop.

[ddudley 0]

You cannot call pre-flop here. I don't really care how bad the two behind me are, if I am entering this pot it is for a raise when I am two off the button.

Would a VP$IP of 73% and 57% change your mind? I'm 90% sure that if I raise they both will call. I never raise with K-10 unless I'm 90% sure I'll be last to act of the flop. We are a long way from that here.Listen up people, this is the last discussion about preflop play I'm going to read. WE ARE NOT HERE TO DISCUSS PREFLOP PLAY ON THIS PARTICULAR HAND. If you want ot weight in on that subject I've put a pole at the top. You can vote but there is no need to discuss. This post is to discuss the flop play ONLY.

[ddudley 0]

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.aseem

Aseem,I repect your opinion so I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You would have limped or folded preflop?

He is saying to fold preflop.

Is your name Aseem?

[WonderfulSplash 0]

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.aseem

Aseem,I repect your opinion so I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You would have limped or folded preflop?

He is saying to fold preflop.

Is your name Aseem?

He said it isn't that good, meaning not optimal, meaning he would most likely fold it.

[speedz99 145]

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.aseem

Aseem,I repect your opinion so I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You would have limped or folded preflop?

He is saying to fold preflop.

Is your name Aseem?

Can you read? He said that the information you had makes some hands playable, but NOT KTo. I'm not seeing what you don't understand. Anyways, I'll quote jay who said it best about the flop play:

Your flop play is either a re-raise or fold, there's no such thing as a call here. If you think you have the best hand, you raise, otherwise fold. I'd defintely lean towards folding, if your behind here, your in very bad shape and drawing extremely slim. I also think your probably way behind here.

[ddudley 0]

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.aseem

Aseem,I repect your opinion so I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You would have limped or folded preflop?

He is saying to fold preflop.

Is your name Aseem?

Can you read? He said that the information you had makes some hands playable, but NOT KTo. I'm not seeing what you don't understand. Anyways, I'll quote jay who said it best about the flop play:

Your flop play is either a re-raise or fold, there's no such thing as a call here. If you think you have the best hand, you raise, otherwise fold. I'd defintely lean towards folding, if your behind here, your in very bad shape and drawing extremely slim. I also think your probably way behind here.

Your name still isn't aseem. Why don't you run along and bother someone else?

[KDawgCometh 2]

I have no problem with the PF limp at all. shit, I'm doing it. I think not raising PF is smart because with the idiot twins behind you raising will just bloat the pot, cause they will call. as to the flop play, you have to fold this. I don't see you being ahead here enough to consider three betting and calling just sucks. I'm folding and moving onto the next hand

[ddudley 0]

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.aseem

Aseem,I repect your opinion so I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You would have limped or folded preflop?

He is saying to fold preflop.

Is your name Aseem?

He said it isn't that good, meaning not optimal, meaning he would most likely fold it.

Right, that was my interpretation of his post as well. I'm asking him to make a decision... There is no "probably fold" button at Empire.

[ddudley 0]

I have no problem with the PF limp at all. shit, I'm doing it. I think not raising PF is smart because with the idiot twins behind you raising will just bloat the pot, cause they will call. as to the flop play, you have to fold this. I don't see you being ahead here enough to consider three betting and calling just sucks. I'm folding and moving onto the next hand

Thanks for the blunt advice. I think I'm going to have to agree with you. JWeb says you play for a living too. I'll try to send you an AIM later today.

[speedz99 145]

Oh my god. Do you really need aseem to post the following on this thread:FOLD PREFLOPfor you to get it?You know, with a six hour flight you could just find him in person. Maybe he'd let you suck on his nuts for a while in exchange for more clear explanations of simple poker strategies.But maybe I did misinterperet his comments. I doubt it, but it's possible. I'll tell you what...I'll pitch in $5 for your plane ticket to Boston...and I'll even ask him personally if he'll let you slob his knob.