Jump to content

jj, k on flop, 3 callers, what to do on turn?


Recommended Posts

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is BB with [Js], [Jc]. CO posts a blind of $3. UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls.Flop: (11 SB) [8c], [Kh], [6c] (6 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Button calls, SB calls.Turn: (7.50 BB) [2d] (5 players)SB checks, Hero ???????One of the callers was tight aggressive, one was tight passive, and one was semi-loose passive.Three callers on this flop alarmed me; I figured they couldn't all have draws, and that K should be scary, given that I raised preflop. Should I check/fold? Check and call one? Or bet and fold to a raise?

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a flush draw and a couple of straight draws on the board, with 11 SB at the flop (so any gutshots were correct to call). I'm voting bet/fold. Anyone with a K could be waiting for a safe turn to raise out the draws. Is it bad spewage to test the waters on that semi-scary flop and safe turn?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I bet/fold this. it's a little scary that two tight players called, but there was a flush and straight draw out there, and the pot is 7.5BB. Also, one of those tighties is a TAG, so he probably raises the flop with a K.

Link to post
Share on other sites

id bet fold , so much outs on this one , most of those callers on ddraws, or king with a weak kicker. besides if someone with that king weak kicker would happent o see a flush or str8 on table they would run off, i dont think someone has aking here for real

Link to post
Share on other sites

People call on the flop for a whole matter of reasons, his call doesn't mean he has top pair.The SB or Button could have a draw, middle pair, even bottom pair. IMO, you should be betting this turn unless you know your opponent/s to be TP rocks or something. Why didn't anyone raise? They're all weak passive opponents? Would button raise with TP?Steve Griff

Link to post
Share on other sites

ummm, here's a question. 1) why are you posting utg, did you just mess up.2) why are you waiting to raise when the action gets back around to you. I'm not raising that in the sb or the BB to begin with with all of the callers. I don't like putting money in from the blinds being OOP for the rest of the hand. YOu give up a small edge PF to then have a bigger edge postflop, its not rocket science

Link to post
Share on other sites
ummm, here's a question. 1) why are you posting utg, did you just mess up.2) why are you waiting to raise when the action gets back around to you. I'm not raising that in the sb or the BB to begin with with all of the callers. I don't like putting money in from the blinds being OOP for the rest of the hand. YOu give up a small edge PF to then have a bigger edge postflop, its not rocket science
Sorry, apparently the converter messed up (?), and I didn't notice - I was in the BB, not UTG (I fixed it now.)Regarding raising from the BB, I generally like to raise J's here; I figure it's almost worth it for set value alone, and in addition, the flop will come with three undercards 36% of the time, in which case I will usually have the best hand. So I like raising PF for value here. That said, I'm not totally sure that I should be autobetting this flop....
Link to post
Share on other sites

Kdawg,I usually raise all pp's for set value when there are already 5 opponents in the pot with me. I thought this was a common play???Also, is MNG said, we do have value when undercards flop. Is this why you want to keep the pot size down? It would make it easier to protect your hand the time you do flop undercards. IIn this instance, I think JJ has too much PF equity not to push against 5 loose players. By raising, we will not win as often UI, but it still happens enough to make raising here profitable IMO.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The pre-flop bet is fine IMO. JJ is always a tough hand to play, especially at PartyPoker and PacificPoker, where almost half of the table always seems to call your pre-flop bet.The Flop: The bet is okay here. Consider it as a feeler bet to see who has something worth playing.The turn: I'm check/folding here. With 3 players calling your bet on the flop, at least one of them has to be holding a king. Since you raised pre-flop, the kicker probably isn't bad either. If they do indeed have a good king, they are going to bet it. If everyone checks behind you, I'm check/folding the river too. There are just too many people in this hand to all be on draws. 9/10 times, you are beat and are not going to win this hand with betting.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Kdawg,I usually raise all pp's for set value when there are already 5 opponents in the pot with me. I thought this was a common play???
Hmmm, getting 1:5 on a raise with any PP from the BB wouldn't constitute set value alone. and i don't really see how not raising JJ in an unraised pot when you're in the blinds can be good... soo much equity...
Link to post
Share on other sites
Kdawg,I usually raise all pp's for set value when there are already 5 opponents in the pot with me. I thought this was a common play???
Hmmm, getting 1:5 on a raise with any PP from the BB wouldn't constitute set value alone. and i don't really see how not raising JJ in an unraised pot when you're in the blinds can be good... soo much equity...
No, but it would tie your opponents to the pot a lot more, making it more likely that you will get callers/raisers on most streets.The more I think about this, the more I think not raising with JJ PF here is just wrong. The only hands that play better than JJ in this situation are AA/KK/QQ. If you think you should raise AKo here, you should be raising JJ too.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Kdawg,I usually raise all pp's for set value when there are already 5 opponents in the pot with me. I thought this was a common play???
Hmmm, getting 1:5 on a raise with any PP from the BB wouldn't constitute set value alone. and i don't really see how not raising JJ in an unraised pot when you're in the blinds can be good... soo much equity...
No, but it would tie your opponents to the pot a lot more, making it more likely that you will get callers/raisers on most streets.The more I think about this, the more I think not raising with JJ PF here is just wrong. The only hands that play better than JJ in this situation are AA/KK/QQ. If you think you should raise AKo here, you should be raising JJ too.
AK plays massivly different then JJ. it is much easier to deal with AK and know when to get away from it and when to push with is then dealing with JJ and a bad flop(which will happen more often then we want). Putting less money in from the BB with hands like JJ and 1010 has helped my play out a lot
Link to post
Share on other sites
AK plays massivly different then JJ. it is much easier to deal with AK and know when to get away from it and when to push with is then dealing with JJ and a bad flop(which will happen more often then we want).
I agree with most of this. However, I don't think JJ is that hard to play on a bad flop against 5 opponents.When we flop an ace/king, we don't have to worry about overcard redraws. But we will only flop an ace or a king around 30% of the time. With jacks, we will flop undercards/a set more than 45% of the time. Even though we probably won't win as often when we flop undercards with jacks as when we flop top pair with AK, I still think JJ has decent equity edge over AK in these situations.
Link to post
Share on other sites

JJ, against 5 limpers with the hand range: 99-22,A9s-A2s,KTs-K8s,Q8s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,ATo-A8o,KJo-KToThat gives 32% equity. I just think that's way too good to pass up a raise in most cases. (I realize preflop equity is not the whole story; how well a hand flops is important, as is position - but since jacks will get a favorable flop almost 50% of the time, I still think it's an easy value raise preflop.)Tens I think is probably borderline. I definitely would not raise nines in this spot (unless the limpers were horrible players).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the hand, when I played it, I went with the check/fold line on the turn (it checked around, a blank came on the river, and I checked again).But afterwards, I felt like bet/fold probably would have been the better line on the turn. (Or bet/call, if the raise looked like a possible semibluff.) Assuming random hands, after the flop, the five opponents are only 48% to have a K among them. Of course, they aren't random hands, so they're probably somewhat more likely than that to have a K, plus there are other hands that beat me, but I've got to think I'm too likely to be best to check/fold this. Any 8, 6, or gutshot draw would have odds to peel on the flop, so there's no reason to automatically think a K is out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A preflop raise is ok.That is a VERY scary flop when you hold JJ. Betting out after the flop is a mistake considering the player types you described. So check/fold right here IS the correct play.ps. I do not play limits that small so that infuences my answer. :wink:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...