fold kings preflop?

[Binbs 0]

** Game ID 517974997 starting - 2005-09-29 03:56:00** Aries [Hold 'em] (1.00|2.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money- SlackerNick sitting in seat 1 with $201.05 [Dealer]- holkeri sitting in seat 2 with $205.75- dexxe sitting in seat 3 with $466.05- jusless23 sitting in seat 4 with $48.50- Binbs sitting in seat 5 with $319.25- 2oops2 sitting in seat 6 with $427.25holkeri posted the small blind - $1.00dexxe posted the big blind - $2.00** Dealing card to Binbs: King , King jusless23 foldedBinbs raised - $8.002oops2 raised - $24.00SlackerNick foldedholkeri went all-in - $205.75dexxe foldedBinbs?

[Blink20 0]

All in.Unless you have a really damn good read on the villian, you need to go all in here.A damn good read would be something like having 1k hands on the villian, and him only raising 4 times preflop in those 1k hands. That's extreme but you should get my point.You also need some sort of read on the original reraiser of your bet, if he's been raising loose, the other villian may have picked up on this and decided to push a hand like AK or QQ or even Jacks knowing that first villian was loose.All in all, I never fold Kings preflop. The times you have to pay off aces are outweighed by the times you crush AK, QQ and even Jacks.

[Binbs 0]

This whole table is pretty tight actually. Everyone has V#IP of under 30.

[Blink20 0]

Unless I have specific read on villian, Im pushing all my money in with ease here.Besides, its only one buy in, you should have atleast 15-20 more of those sitting around in your account

[Egarim 0]

smells like ak to me...

[jayboogie 0]

I don't think I've ever laid down Kings before, but situations like this cause you to think about making the laydown. Fortunately you do not have a lot committed to the pot in the first place which makes it possible to lay it down, there's also somebody behind you who made a re-raise, it's not inconceivable one of them has Aces and it seems like one of them would have it given the way this hand has been played. If the game has been tight, it's hard to see somebody making a move here with QQ even and definitely not AK.

[Binbs 0]

How about this one?** Game ID 517989587 starting - 2005-09-29 04:17:31** Dusk till Dawn [Hold 'em] (1.00|2.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money- boxedwine sitting in seat 1 with $216.10- jmorin sitting in seat 2 with $170.90- davman sitting in seat 3 with $189.62- Binbs sitting in seat 4 with $196.42 [Dealer]- jere sitting in seat 5 with $87.73- Xelaz sitting in seat 6 with $132.77jere posted the small blind - $1.00Xelaz posted the big blind - $2.00** Dealing card to Binbs: King , King boxedwine foldedjmorin raised - $6.00davman foldedBinbs raised - $15.00jere raised - $24.00Xelaz foldedjmorin raised - $42.00Binbs folded

[jayboogie 0]

How about this one?** Game ID 517989587 starting - 2005-09-29 04:17:31** Dusk till Dawn [Hold 'em] (1.00|2.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money- boxedwine sitting in seat 1 with $216.10- jmorin sitting in seat 2 with $170.90- davman sitting in seat 3 with $189.62- Binbs sitting in seat 4 with $196.42 [Dealer]- jere sitting in seat 5 with $87.73- Xelaz sitting in seat 6 with $132.77jere posted the small blind - $1.00Xelaz posted the big blind - $2.00** Dealing card to Binbs: King , King boxedwine foldedjmorin raised - $6.00davman foldedBinbs raised - $15.00jere raised - $24.00Xelaz foldedjmorin raised - $42.00Binbs folded

No way do I fold here, I'd push All-In myself and if I run into Aces, well that's just part of the game.

[rbakken2504 0]

Why are people so content with running into aces when you have Kings and saying its part of the game. The games is all about making correct decisions, if you call an allin or push with KK and run into AA its a mistake period. Its a tough decision that needs to be thought out and considered, and should nobody should ever be content with running into aces.

[jayboogie 0]

Why are people so content with running into aces when you have Kings and saying its part of the game. The games is all about making correct decisions, if you call an allin or push with KK and run into AA its a mistake period. Its a tough decision that needs to be thought out and considered, and should nobody should ever be content with running into aces.

The first situation, you can possibly make the laydown given that the pot is not all that big and you don't have much invested and you may be able to find a better spot than this to get your money in.The second situation is an easy easy push. Are you just going to assume somebody has Aces when you raised, get re-raised and re-raised again? I'd hope not. You don't want to let AK, AQ catch an Ace cheaply, so the proper play is to push All-In.I've personally never laid down Kings pre-flop before and I'm sure many others have never done it either. Kings running into Aces happens and very often it's unavoidable especially against aggressive players who will push their hands like AK, QQ the same as Aces and Kings.

[rbakken2504 0]

Why are people so content with running into aces when you have Kings and saying its part of the game. The games is all about making correct decisions, if you call an allin or push with KK and run into AA its a mistake period. Its a tough decision that needs to be thought out and considered, and should nobody should ever be content with running into aces.

The first situation, you can possibly make the laydown given that the pot is not all that big and you don't have much invested and you may be able to find a better spot than this to get your money in.The second situation is an easy easy push. Are you just going to assume somebody has Aces when you raised, get re-raised and re-raised again? I'd hope not. You don't want to let AK, AQ catch an Ace cheaply, so the proper play is to push All-In.I've personally never laid down Kings pre-flop before and I'm sure many others have never done it either. Kings running into Aces happens and very often it's unavoidable especially against aggressive players who will push their hands like AK, QQ the same as Aces and Kings.

I know its an extremely hard situation too avoid, all I am saying, is everybody thinks, oh well, if he has aces, he has aces, every decision should be thoroughly thought out. As far as the situations go, both would be an extremely tough laydown, but i think the second scenario would be an easier laydown, because the reraise made looks like he wants the call, depending on the player. Its a lot harder to make these laydowns online, no physical tells to go off of. Just my thought s...

[pokerplayer24 0]

Just as likely opponent has QQ or AK in most of those spots. You're just not right often enough to justify laying down KK to often

[jayboogie 0]

Why are people so content with running into aces when you have Kings and saying its part of the game. The games is all about making correct decisions, if you call an allin or push with KK and run into AA its a mistake period. Its a tough decision that needs to be thought out and considered, and should nobody should ever be content with running into aces.

The first situation, you can possibly make the laydown given that the pot is not all that big and you don't have much invested and you may be able to find a better spot than this to get your money in.The second situation is an easy easy push. Are you just going to assume somebody has Aces when you raised, get re-raised and re-raised again? I'd hope not. You don't want to let AK, AQ catch an Ace cheaply, so the proper play is to push All-In.I've personally never laid down Kings pre-flop before and I'm sure many others have never done it either. Kings running into Aces happens and very often it's unavoidable especially against aggressive players who will push their hands like AK, QQ the same as Aces and Kings.

I know its an extremely hard situation too avoid, all I am saying, is everybody thinks, oh well, if he has aces, he has aces, every decision should be thoroughly thought out. As far as the situations go, both would be an extremely tough laydown, but i think the second scenario would be an easier laydown, because the reraise made looks like he wants the call, depending on the player. Its a lot harder to make these laydowns online, no physical tells to go off of. Just my thought s...

Trust me overall, going All-In pre-flop with Kings is a +EV play, you will run into Aces sometimes, but the odds are you are ahead. Yes, you use reads and all that, but sometimes the hands play themselves out and when you have Kings going up against Aces, they typically play themselves out. If your not willing to put your chips in there with Kings(2nd nuts pre-flop), your probably not playing all that optimally. There is absolutely no way folding should be an option in the 2nd situation.

[WonderfulSplash 0]

Why are people so content with running into aces when you have Kings and saying its part of the game. The games is all about making correct decisions, if you call an allin or push with KK and run into AA its a mistake period. Its a tough decision that needs to be thought out and considered, and should nobody should ever be content with running into aces.

The first situation, you can possibly make the laydown given that the pot is not all that big and you don't have much invested and you may be able to find a better spot than this to get your money in.The second situation is an easy easy push. Are you just going to assume somebody has Aces when you raised, get re-raised and re-raised again? I'd hope not. You don't want to let AK, AQ catch an Ace cheaply, so the proper play is to push All-In.I've personally never laid down Kings pre-flop before and I'm sure many others have never done it either. Kings running into Aces happens and very often it's unavoidable especially against aggressive players who will push their hands like AK, QQ the same as Aces and Kings.

I know its an extremely hard situation too avoid, all I am saying, is everybody thinks, oh well, if he has aces, he has aces, every decision should be thoroughly thought out. As far as the situations go, both would be an extremely tough laydown, but i think the second scenario would be an easier laydown, because the reraise made looks like he wants the call, depending on the player. Its a lot harder to make these laydowns online, no physical tells to go off of. Just my thought s...

Advocating folding Kings preflop in hand 2 is terrible advice, period. Getting all in in that situation is not a mistake no matter what your opponent has. Poker is a game of incomplete information and without your opponent showing AA it would be a very bad fold.

[Blink20 0]

Its probably more dependent on the limit.So, I can state with 100% accuracy that you never have to lay down kings preflop at any limits 100NL and lower. I have tons and tons of hands, and pocket kings are a huge winner for me at these tables and I never flinch when i have to get all my money in with them.I could pull up a ton of hands and show the absurdity that my opponents have moved in with. I'm sure there's a situation somewhere you could find to justify folding it at these limits, but I would rather focus my time on the easy route here, getting your money in with the 2nd best preflop starting hand.

[rbakken2504 0]

Why are people so content with running into aces when you have Kings and saying its part of the game. The games is all about making correct decisions, if you call an allin or push with KK and run into AA its a mistake period. Its a tough decision that needs to be thought out and considered, and should nobody should ever be content with running into aces.

The first situation, you can possibly make the laydown given that the pot is not all that big and you don't have much invested and you may be able to find a better spot than this to get your money in.The second situation is an easy easy push. Are you just going to assume somebody has Aces when you raised, get re-raised and re-raised again? I'd hope not. You don't want to let AK, AQ catch an Ace cheaply, so the proper play is to push All-In.I've personally never laid down Kings pre-flop before and I'm sure many others have never done it either. Kings running into Aces happens and very often it's unavoidable especially against aggressive players who will push their hands like AK, QQ the same as Aces and Kings.

I know its an extremely hard situation too avoid, all I am saying, is everybody thinks, oh well, if he has aces, he has aces, every decision should be thoroughly thought out. As far as the situations go, both would be an extremely tough laydown, but i think the second scenario would be an easier laydown, because the reraise made looks like he wants the call, depending on the player. Its a lot harder to make these laydowns online, no physical tells to go off of. Just my thought s...

Advocating folding Kings preflop in hand 2 is terrible advice, period. Getting all in in that situation is not a mistake no matter what your opponent has. Poker is a game of incomplete information and without your opponent showing AA it would be a very bad fold.

But then making a call and your opponent showing aces, you just made a good call???? no absolutely not. You cannot say you will not fold Kings preflop, most of the time it is +EV to move in, but it is definately -EV when youre up against aces. Im not sayin you should always or even seldomly fold Kings preflop, but it is something to be thought about. I'm sure you know, poker is a game of gaining extra bets and saving extra bets, thats what makes a winning player. I guarantee you NO pro will say they will never fold KK preflop.

[Binbs 0]

I had 3 situations tonight where I was pressured into going all in preflop with KK.Here are the three hands. Ill post them in the same order as earlier in this thread.Hand 1:** Game ID 517974997 starting - 2005-09-29 03:56:00** Aries [Hold 'em] (1.00|2.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money- SlackerNick sitting in seat 1 with $201.05 [Dealer]- holkeri sitting in seat 2 with $205.75- dexxe sitting in seat 3 with $466.05- jusless23 sitting in seat 4 with $48.50- Binbs sitting in seat 5 with $319.25- 2oops2 sitting in seat 6 with $427.25holkeri posted the small blind - $1.00dexxe posted the big blind - $2.00** Dealing card to Binbs: King , King jusless23 foldedBinbs raised - $8.002oops2 raised - $24.00SlackerNick foldedholkeri went all-in - $205.75dexxe foldedBinbs went all-in - $311.252oops2 called - $319.25holkeri shows: Ace , Ace 2oops2 shows: Ace , Ace ** Dealing the flop: 5 of Spades, Jack of Diamonds, 9 of Hearts** Dealing the turn: 6 of Hearts** Dealing the river: 2 of Heartsholkeri wins $309.63 from the main pot2oops2 wins $309.62 from the main pot2oops2 wins $534.62 from side pot 1End of game 517974997Hand 2(This was about half an hour after Hand 1, hence I folded):** Game ID 517989587 starting - 2005-09-29 04:17:31** Dusk till Dawn [Hold 'em] (1.00|2.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money- boxedwine sitting in seat 1 with $216.10- jmorin sitting in seat 2 with $170.90- davman sitting in seat 3 with $189.62- Binbs sitting in seat 4 with $196.42 [Dealer]- jere sitting in seat 5 with $87.73- Xelaz sitting in seat 6 with $132.77jere posted the small blind - $1.00Xelaz posted the big blind - $2.00** Dealing card to Binbs: King , King boxedwine foldedjmorin raised - $6.00davman foldedBinbs raised - $15.00jere raised - $24.00Xelaz foldedjmorin raised - $42.00Binbs foldedjere went all-in - $64.73jmorin called - $88.73jmorin shows: Ace , Ace jere shows: 10 , Ace ** Dealing the flop: 8 , 7 , 2 ** Dealing the turn: Jack ** Dealing the river: 5 jmorin wins $191.46 from the main potEnd of game 517989587Hand 3: (This hand I played earlier in the evening.Trust me I dont wanna ever lay KK down preflop)** Game ID 517787741 starting - 2005-09-29 00:46:16** Beetle [Hold 'em] (1.00|2.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money- lutina sitting in seat 1 with $181.50- Binbs sitting in seat 2 with $211.21 [Dealer]- zzzzzs sitting in seat 3 with $202.55- noema76 sitting in seat 4 with $180.00- BigHustler sitting in seat 5 with $141.53- Goingberserk sitting in seat 6 with $50.50zzzzzs posted the small blind - $1.00noema76 posted the big blind - $2.00** Dealing card to Binbs: King , King BigHustler foldedGoingberserk foldedlutina foldedBinbs raised - $6.00zzzzzs foldednoema76 raised - $10.00Binbs raised - $31.00noema76 raised - $52.00Binbs went all-in - $180.21noema76 went all-in - $130.00noema76 shows: Queen , 10 ** Dealing the flop: 2 , King , 8 ** Dealing the turn: Ace ** Dealing the river: 4 Binbs wins $362.00 from the main potEnd of game 517787741

[Briguy 0]

That sucks. But at least this is one of those rare situations where tilting saved you money (2nd hand)!

[Nutcracker 0]

But then making a call and your opponent showing aces, you just made a good call???? no absolutely not. You cannot say you will not fold Kings preflop, most of the time it is +EV to move in, but it is definately -EV when youre up against aces. Im not sayin you should always or even seldomly fold Kings preflop, but it is something to be thought about. I'm sure you know, poker is a game of gaining extra bets and saving extra bets, thats what makes a winning player. I guarantee you NO pro will say they will never fold KK preflop.

Don't be results based in your thinking. You can never put an opponent on 2 exact cards from just preflop actions alone (and rarely from postflop actions), but you can put them on a range of hands. In situation 2, it is +EV to push all in, even if he has aces , simply because we are a favorite against the range of hands he could hold. Please don't be one of those people who "stares into their soul" and figures out exactly what they have either. If you think it's -EV to push here and get called by aces, then it's -EV to push and get called by 23o and have the flop come 333. That's results based thinking (the particular hand he has from the hand range you narrowed down is just a result, remember). Try to avoid that.Now, on hand 1. I'd whip out PT stats on the guy and absent any solid read that says he rarely raises, I call.Oh, and don't knock on people for saying "if he has aces, so be it". Here's an analogy. You have As5s and the final board reads 6s9sTsJdKd. A guy moves all in. You call and say to yourself "if he has the straight flush, so be it." If you even think for more than 2 seconds before calling, you're a donk and you're trying way too hard to make "pro moves".

[Rokuban 0]

Never, ever, fold kings preflop in a cash gameIf you do so, just stop playing poker, or at least stop NLHE.

[Rokuban 0]

But then making a call and your opponent showing aces, you just made a good call???? no absolutely not. You cannot say you will not fold Kings preflop, most of the time it is +EV to move in, but it is definately -EV when youre up against aces. Im not sayin you should always or even seldomly fold Kings preflop, but it is something to be thought about. I'm sure you know, poker is a game of gaining extra bets and saving extra bets, thats what makes a winning player. I guarantee you NO pro will say they will never fold KK preflop.

You'll never find a pro to tell you he/she folded KK preflop in a cash game. And folding KK preflop in a cash game is never -EV. Sure it would be -EV if you're up against aces. But you don't know what you're up against, as you're not a psychic. So you have to consider a range of hands he can push with. AA & AK are possibilities. AA is the only one that will beat you right away, and AK only less than 30% of the time. SO calling all in preflop with KK is always +EV. Always. Fold it preflop against an all in and, in the long term, you'll lose money. no contest.

[looshle 6]

Never, ever, fold kings preflop in a cash gameIf you do so, just stop playing poker, or at least stop NLHE.

Horrible advice. Kings can be folded in some situations.Let's say it's 1/2 NLHE and we have Kings. Preflop we make it $8.00, its raised to $24, another player makes it $75, another player makes it $200, and a player behind him goes all in for $500. You'd call here with kings? If you do, YOU should stop playing poker.If you can't fold the second nuts, you can't be too good of a poker player. I'm sure alot of people have folded king high flushes because they knew their opponent had the ace high flush. There's no difference, but the fish will say "well if he's got the ace high flush, "that's poker"Poker is making the best play and folding kings is sometimes the best play. It's extremely rare but there should never be an absolute poker.

[Rokuban 0]

Horrible advice. Kings can be folded in some situations.

Not in cash games, unless you've seen the cards of your opponents and it's AA.

Let's say it's 1/2 NLHE and we have Kings. Preflop we make it $8.00, its raised to $24, another player makes it $75, another player makes it $200, and a player behind him goes all in for $500. You'd call here with kings? If you do, YOU should stop playing poker.

Yes, let's. There is 807$ in the pot, assuming nobody else calls. I don't know what my stack size is, but I call the 500 and even reraise all in if I have enough to get out all the other players.I have no reads but if the 500$ guy had aces, he wouldn't have done that. And if he has aces, well, I still have 2 outs (plus the occasional straight or flush). And as the usual fish is afraid of losing so much money, by reraising all in, I could even make some AK/QQ fold, and maybe even those AA you're so afraid of ("I always lose with pocket rockets")If i'm afraid to put those 500$ on the table with my KK, then I'm playing too high a limit and should back down.And by the way, preflop, no one has the nuts. Folding KK in a cash game isn't folding the second nuts, even against a (supposed) AA. It's folding the second best hand you can hope for preflop, that's all. And that, sir, is -EV.

[rbakken2504 0]

I have folded Kings three times in my life twice in a tournament and once in a cash game, and all three times ive folded it I was shown aces. These were three rare situations where not only did my kings run into aces, but i had played with the players before and had such a good read on them that I knew the move they were making could be with nothing but Aces. THIS IS NOT A -EV PLAY, I saved bets in three situations where most of you say you wouldnt have. Now I've also been on the side of the coin where I havent been able to lay them down and run into aces. Saying you never would think about laying KK down is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Saying you can't lay them down is understandable, but at least those people would probably think about the situation and try to put their opponent on two exact cards. I dont try to make pro moves as one poster said, I dont consider myself a pro, but a I do play for a living, and have been doing quite well for the past three years. If youre going to fold KK tho, just dont be wrong, lol.

[Nutcracker 0]

Horrible advice. Kings can be folded in some situations.

Not in cash games, unless you've seen the cards of your opponents and it's AA.

Let's say it's 1/2 NLHE and we have Kings. Preflop we make it $8.00, its raised to $24, another player makes it $75, another player makes it $200, and a player behind him goes all in for $500. You'd call here with kings? If you do, YOU should stop playing poker.

Yes, let's. There is 807$ in the pot, assuming nobody else calls. I don't know what my stack size is, but I call the 500 and even reraise all in if I have enough to get out all the other players.I have no reads but if the 500$ guy had aces, he wouldn't have done that. And if he has aces, well, I still have 2 outs (plus the occasional straight or flush). And as the usual fish is afraid of losing so much money, by reraising all in, I could even make some AK/QQ fold, and maybe even those AA you're so afraid of ("I always lose with pocket rockets")If i'm afraid to put those 500$ on the table with my KK, then I'm playing too high a limit and should back down.And by the way, preflop, no one has the nuts. Folding KK in a cash game isn't folding the second nuts, even against a (supposed) AA. It's folding the second best hand you can hope for preflop, that's all. And that, sir, is -EV.

While I agree that you can't fold KK preflop in most cases and certainly not in the ones OP posted, some of what you said is wrong.First of all, yes, a person is going to go all in with aces pf if there are 4 raises in front of him. I don't see why that would make someone want to play them any differently. Second, you aren't getting AA to fold. Not even the fishiest players will do that. Sure they think their aces get cracked all the time, but they lose with K8o all the time and yet they play it anyway. Thirdly, aces are the nuts preflop. The nuts are defined as the best hand at the time. You are thinking of the stone cold nuts, which is a hand that cannot be beat no matter what comes.In this situation, I'd still call with KK, unless you have some pretty strong reads on a very tight player that they have aces, and face it, a read that strong doesn't come along very often. Don't try to fool yourselves into thinking you are better at reading your opponent than you really are. It will only get you into trouble.