i guess mhwg (lhe)

[econ_tim 0]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: econ_tim is MP1 with A:spade:, 9:spade:. CO posts a blind of $2. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, econ_tim calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.Flop: (13 SB) 9:diamond:, Q:spade:, 6:spade: (6 players)SB bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.Turn: (11.50 BB) 3:heart: (5 players)SB checks, UTG+1 checks, econ_tim bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB folds, UTG+1 calls.River: (15.50 BB) 7:club: (4 players)UTG+1 checks, econ_tim bets, MP2 folds, CO folds, UTG+1 folds.Final Pot: 16.50 BBhuh?did i have the best hand?play it different?

[screech 0]

I would have hit a flush on the river and got paid off nicely by a weaker flush. :wink: Besides that, I it.I especially like the river bet. Bravo.

[Bubba83 0]

I think you had the best hand, however many times you won't have the best hand here, and I think raising on the flop could scare many players out behind you for 2 bets besides hands that have you beat. I think you want that extra money in from players you're ahead of, especially if you're drawing to a flush to win. Worked out great though the way you played it, and I like the raise if you do suspect your hand is good. Usually, im just calling and hoping for value, though this may be an exception if you think you're good here with A 9. Coincidentally, the players behind you cold called 2 bets on the flop anyways, and you did get value. Surprising to see so many people fold to your bet on the river. I think there was definitely a lower flush draw here and a J 10, maybe even two J 10s or a 7 8?

[screech 0]

and I think raising on the flop could scare many players out behind you for 2 bets besides hands that have you beat. I think you want that extra money in from players you're ahead of, especially if you're drawing to a flush to win. Worked out great though the way you played it, and I like the raise if you do suspect your hand is good. Usually, im just calling and hoping for value, though this may be an exception if you think you're good here with A 9.

This reasoning for not raising the flop is flawed. I'm raising this flop even if one of my opponents who has called turns over QJ. We have 15 outs to two pair or better. We are a 54% favorite to improve by the river. With 1 bet and 1 caller ahead of us, this raise is clearly for value. Even if we just had Axs (no pair), we should raise in this situation to clean up our lone ace outs. This is a large pot, we have a monster hand, this is a very easy raise.

[HtotheNootch 0]

Gotta raise that flop.Tim you played it nice. I wimp out on the rive way too often.

[Bubba83 0]

Something I read in a book talked about flopping a flush draw and a pair, and said you should not get too crazy with it, to play it for value. I guess I understand where you are going with raising the flop, because you are getting value assuming your 9 is good out of the original raiser, and not caring much if the 9 isnt good. My question then is what is different about this situation that makes raising correct than what the book talks about? Sorry I can't give reference to what book it's from or anything, but it must have been SS1, SS2, Winning Low Limit Hold'em or Hold'em for Advanced Players, as those are what I have read.

[screech 0]

My guess is that it is Winning Low Limit Hold'em. This book is fairly good, but does contain some weak/bad advice.

[akishore 0]

My guess is that it is Winning Low Limit Hold'em. This book is fairly good

no. it's not. i've read it, and it's horrendous. every other word is "fold" when you have top pair six kicker.

but does contain some weak/bad advice.

this is an extraordinary understatement, perhaps the understatement of the century.aseem

[akishore 0]

I especially like the river bet. Bravo.

i definitely don't.aseem

[Kendren 1]

Aseem, do you think he had the best hand on the river? I'm not convinced, but he does have some fold equity here. What about don't you like?

[akishore 0]

he doesn't have any fold equity against a hand better than pair of nines ace kicker.he has some value against straight draws that picked upa worse pair along the way, but the flop was so draw-heavy that almost all worse hands are folding, except the double-gutted straight draw that got there.it's not *that* close in my mind, but i think it's a -EV bet. i could be wrong.aseem

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I especially like the river bet. Bravo.

i definitely don't.aseem

I'm not sure about this; I can't see a better hand folding, but I can't see a worse hand trying to bluff this many opponents on this board either. I can see a worse nine calling, at least. So I think bet/fold is better than check/call in this case. (Unless you bet and get raised as a possible bluff, in which case you may have to call.)Heads-up, I think check/call would be better.

[Breaking Liberty 0]

That is a rough decision to bet that river(You did everything right before the river).The only person that has showed any strength at all during the hand is the SB and he folded the turn.So now you have gained fold equity here, but the pot is so big that anyone with a half way decent hand probably isn't going to fold(Qx is more than likely going to call here. They have called this many bets, why would they fold now? And anyone playing pocket jacks or tens passively isn't going anywhere).Unless you have a read on the table, i.e. everyone is passive and can be pushed off hands easily, betting here is probably a -EV play in the long run. You're probably only getting called when your beat and the size of the pot kills your fold equity.

[Breaking Liberty 0]

I especially like the river bet. Bravo.

i definitely don't.aseem

I'm not sure about this; I can't see a better hand folding, but I can't see a worse hand trying to bluff this many opponents on this board either. I can see a worse nine calling, at least. So I think bet/fold is better than check/call in this case. (Unless you bet and get raised as a possible bluff, in which case you may have to call.)Heads-up, I think check/call would be better.

I suppose a check/call may be the best +EV play here unless you have a read telling you other wise. No one has showed any strength thus far and it is not unlikely for someone here to bet with a worst hand than A9 if it’s checked to them.The pot is huge. Folding here for one more bet when no one has showed any strength is not the right decision, but betting here isn't right either. Again, you aren't going to get called unless you’re beat, and what if you get raised? High unlikely that a raise at this point will be a bluff, and you'll be committed to call on more bet into this pot.Yep, as I talk it out in my head, I definitely like check/call here as the +EV play.

[screech 0]

I think the bet/fold is superior to check/call for a few reasons:1) No one has shown strength so far, so it is unlikely that a pair of queens is out, or that the river will get raised. Even a pair of queens is out, they may value bet the river anyway, and you will be forced to call if you check. 2) I don't think very many hands worse than ours will bet this river, but I think a lot of worse hands will call because of the size of the pot. Also, I think it is unlikely that we will get bluff-raised here.3) While it happens only rarely, we may get a weak queen to fold. Something that could not happen if we check.4) Given the action so far, we are probably beting for value.

[Breaking Liberty 0]

With no one showing any strength thus far it's almost like you have to bet, I feel. But at the same time I wonder what the risk/reward ratio to betting there is.It seems like the only time your going to get a caller is when your beat, because all the people calling down with a lesser hand trying to hit their two pair or trips are going to fold figuring you for a better pair, so you're not going to pick up any extra bets from them, and the people with hands that beat you aren't going anywhere because the size of the pot.But it's not unlikely that someone with a lesser hand will bet here thinking they might have the best hand if it is checked to them. I see it all the time.The chance of your hand being good here and the amount of extra bets you will pick up by betting it in the long run doesn’t seem too positive.I could be completely wrong though, I’m just going on what I’ve seen from personal experiences.

[econ_tim 0]

hands that call that I beat:K9, J9, T9, 9888, and worse PPhands that call that beat me:Qx, JJ, TT, possibly bad two pairhands that raise me and I fold:8T, two pair, 77, bluff raise

[screech 0]

But at the same time I wonder what the risk/reward ratio to betting there is.

If one person calls, you risk 1 to win 1, if two people call, you risk 1 to win 2, etc...

all the people calling down with a lesser hand trying to hit their two pair or trips are going to fold figuring you for a better pair, so you're not going to pick up any extra bets from them

This should be "all the people calling down with a lesser hand trying to hit their draws are going to fold because they have nothing, so you're not going to pick up any extra bets from them, unless they make a weaker pair on the end.

and the people with hands that beat you aren't going anywhere because the size of the pot.

This is an obvious statement. I just threw out the fact that someone with a weak queen may fold (maybe an unlikely 1% of the time), but when it happens, it's huge for us. If I understand you correctly, you are saying all hands that have us beat won't fold (which I agree with), but no hands that we beat are going to call (which I strongly disagree with). I think our loose opponents will call with a lot worse hands than usual because of the pot size.

But it's not unlikely that someone with a lesser hand will bet here thinking they might have the best hand if it is checked to them. I see it all the time.

I think this runs contrarty to how most opponents play. In large multiway pots like this, they will reluctantly call with weaker hands than normal in hopes that the bettor is bluffing. However, if checked to, they will usually check their mediocre hands behind in hopes that their hands hold up at showdown.