rwood 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 9 players 100NL empireme A8di limp ep, hoping for a cheap flop4 more limpers behind including blindsflop is KQ4 with 2 diamondsi lead out with 5 (pot sized bet)i get one callerturn is another K, not my favorite card, but also not a bad onei bet 10 (2/3rd's of the pot to keep my lead). i have only played 1.5 orbits so dont really have a read on player behind me. he cold calls. river 4 of diamonds, completing my flush and putting 2 pairs on the board. with the pot having 45ish in it i didnt know exactly where i was, i put my oponent on a weak king, Q or mid PP. anyways, i put out another pot sized bet as a semi-value/semi-defensive bet. i was wondering what you all would do with this passive player with no read? check the river, and call a small bet while folding to a large one? or do you keep the lead representing your king with the value/defensive bet with the nut flush?cheers. ryan. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Zach6668 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 BET!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Zach6668 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 BET!!!!He could have been on a flush draw as well. I think if he had a K, he may have raised on the flop to at least see where he stood. You said he was a passive player, but you also said you had no read. He could have just been playing passively with a non-nut flush draw in this case.Either way, I think it has to be a bet. You can't just assume he has a full house. I really don't even think he has a King, but if he does, it's very weak. He could also have just a PP, and maybe hit his set on the flop, but I still think he would have reraised you here earlier. I don't know, just my .02... I still say bet though, but I would like to see what the experts say.ZachDISCLAIMER - do not take this advice as expert advice. Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I really don't like betting the river there. He would call you with the nut flush, but wait, YOU have the nut flush. What could he have to call you with that you can beat? I think the best play would be to check and let him value bet a weaker flush. If the bet is too big, then you have to wonder what you could beat at that point? What could he be betting with? A horrible river card, and if that guy has the guts to bluff at it with a big bet, tip your hand to him and give him the money! Link to post Share on other sites
Devilkin 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Check, call a small bet, fold to a large bet. I have better places to put my chips than in a pot that I'm probably less than 50/50 to win. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I'm not sure i like the lead out bet with 4 limpers behind.You bet out the pot. so you were committing that amount of chips regardless, which would mean you were willing to call a pot sized bet.But withthe pot sized bet you could easily get raised to someone who doesnt believe your hand. You limped from EP and now u make a pot sized bet??.I think if i had any ssort of hand i was raising. The board also has two pair, I'm pretty sure ur flush is no good, Unless you think villain holds a Q.Anyways, to sum, betting nut flush draws to build pots, or use as semi-bluffs is good, and a strong move in limit, but this was a tourney style full table game.Betting out the flop was not a good move in my opinion Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Edit, I just relaised its a cash game.but still not very strong on the lead out, was this a semi bluff when u hold the nut flush draw? Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I really don't like betting the river there. He would call you with the nut flush, but wait, YOU have the nut flush. What could he have to call you with that you can beat? I think the best play would be to check and let him value bet a weaker flush. If the bet is too big, then you have to wonder what you could beat at that point? What could he be betting with? A horrible river card, and if that guy has the guts to bluff at it with a big bet, tip your hand to him and give him the money!I don't think you play enough low limit NL hold 'em, DN. What would they call a value bet with? lets see.. a lower flush, a king, a queen, a plethoria of worse hands. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 McGee, the board is double-paired. If they have a king, we're sunk. The only worse hands that might call our bet are a pair of queens or a worse flush. Link to post Share on other sites
rwood 0 Posted November 8, 2005 Author Share Posted November 8, 2005 yea i think we are forgetting this is LOW LIMIT NL. anyways big d, yea it was a semi bluff, i was hoping to take down the pot with a bet on the turn when the K paired...anyways, i may tend to be a little overly aggressive, as i like holding the lead most of the timelike i said before, i honestly thought it was a half value bet/half defensive bet, as im used to getting called down by any mid pp in that situation and any queen. he hadnt shown ANY strength really...thanks for your responses guys! i guess the safer route woudl have been check/call small raise Link to post Share on other sites
rwood 0 Posted November 8, 2005 Author Share Posted November 8, 2005 sorryroyal yea that was a semi bluff with the nut flush drawi've been playing limit for the last year or so, and just switched back to NL a week or so ago... so i am def. more than rustyanways, i personally like leading the flop there definitely...it gives you more ways to win the pot, plus if i see a limper from ep betting into 4 people i def. think he may be somewhat strong... Link to post Share on other sites
Eastwood Jr. 0 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I really don't like betting the river there. He would call you with the nut flush, but wait, YOU have the nut flush. What could he have to call you with that you can beat? I think the best play would be to check and let him value bet a weaker flush. If the bet is too big, then you have to wonder what you could beat at that point? What could he be betting with? A horrible river card, and if that guy has the guts to bluff at it with a big bet, tip your hand to him and give him the money!No need to say too much more. When the only thing you can beat is a bluff then at least give the man a chance to bluff. If you have a strong read that he is holding a queen or a lower flush then you could call a small to mid sized bet but raising just doesn't make much sense. (The bluff beater hand wins alot but it almost never wins against a re-raise) Link to post Share on other sites
Eastwood Jr. 0 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I don't think you play enough low limit NL hold 'em, DN. What would they call a value bet with? lets see.. a lower flush, a king, a queen, a plethoria of worse hands.Your opponent would have to be horrible for a genuine value bet to have a positive EV here. I'm not saying that its impossible but if the guy is that horrible then he'll probably make a small bluff when you check to him anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
EnlightenUp 0 Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 i guess saying "what daniel said" is implied. that said, i don't like the flop lead. five limpers, two broadway cards, and a partridge in a pear tree. you are not taking this pot down with a continuation bet. Link to post Share on other sites
petersun 0 Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 I'd check and pray he checks behind me =)If he does make a small bet, I'd pay him off. Link to post Share on other sites
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