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A Hand That's Bothering Me


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I played such an amzing session yesterday and IMO fu*ed up on one major hand. I'll explain my logic and I want to know if it was a bad play or just unlucky. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG ($287.40)MP ($200)CO ($285.75)Button ($213.45)SB ($389.95)Hero ($216.20)Preflop: Hero is BB with Aspade.gif, 8heart.gif. 1 fold, MP raises to $8, 3 folds, Hero raises to $24, MP calls $16.OK...I know what you're thinking. I fold this A8 even if it was suited 99% of the time in the blinds by a 2nd position raiser. The only reason I was defending was because villain was very active in the 10 minutes that I've spend at the table raising lots of pots. Flop: ($49) Aheart.gif, Jclub.gif, 6club.gif(2 players)Hero bets $36, MP calls $36.I was pretty happy to see this flop and after his call narrowed his range to AQ, AXs, or a club flush draw, or a KQ of clubs which is also an inside straight draw. I was hoping for the turn to blank.Turn: ($121) 6diamond.gif(2 players)Hero bets $100, MP raises to $140, Hero calls $40.OK...a pretty innocent turn card comes down. At this point the only hand I'm afraid of to beat me is AQ. I didn't think he'd get away from an AQ if I push. BUT...I thought I was getting value from all the Ax that would fold assuming that I must have at least AQ. I believed that with the draws on board he'd raise me with AK after the flop because there is no hand, except JJ, that he'd be afraid of. AQ calls my flop bet because of the large possibility that I have AK. Ax fold most of the time and if they don't we have a split. I didn't want to check because it'd give him the opportunity to make a move on me and put me on the test. Also, if he has a draw, I'm making him pay dearly for it. So I decided to bet 100 and obv I have to call when he puts in an extra 40 as I need to win 10% of the time to make this break even.River: ($401) 3heart.gif(2 players)Final Pot: $401He flipped over AQ and won the pot. I was shocked and was pissed telling me that I should have folded preflop. But after rethinking my thought process I still think this might be profitable..My question is, do you guys like my thought process ? My self critcism is that even though most of the time I have villain beat I should have waited to play a pot with him when i'm in position and not play A8 OOP...which is a very tricky hand to play OOP and is hard when you don't know much about your opponent....Thoughts?

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You said it all. Fold that trash pf. After that, nothing much you could do given stack sizes and prior actions. When you make that raise pf and hit your ace, you're stuck.

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I played such an amzing session yesterday and IMO fu*ed up on one major hand. I'll explain my logic and I want to know if it was a bad play or just unlucky. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG ($287.40)MP ($200)CO ($285.75)Button ($213.45)SB ($389.95)Hero ($216.20)Preflop: Hero is BB with Aspade.gif, 8heart.gif. 1 fold, MP raises to $8, 3 folds, Hero raises to $24, MP calls $16.OK...I know what you're thinking. I fold this A8 even if it was suited 99% of the time in the blinds by a 2nd position raiser. The only reason I was defending was because villain was very active in the 10 minutes that I've spend at the table raising lots of pots. Flop: ($49) Aheart.gif, Jclub.gif, 6club.gif(2 players)Hero bets $36, MP calls $36.I was pretty happy to see this flop and after his call narrowed his range to AQ, AXs, or a club flush draw, or a KQ of clubs which is also an inside straight draw. I was hoping for the turn to blank.Turn: ($121) 6diamond.gif(2 players)Hero bets $100, MP raises to $140, Hero calls $40.OK...a pretty innocent turn card comes down. At this point the only hand I'm afraid of to beat me is AQ. I didn't think he'd get away from an AQ if I push. BUT...I thought I was getting value from all the Ax that would fold assuming that I must have at least AQ. I believed that with the draws on board he'd raise me with AK after the flop because there is no hand, except JJ, that he'd be afraid of. AQ calls my flop bet because of the large possibility that I have AK. Ax fold most of the time and if they don't we have a split. I didn't want to check because it'd give him the opportunity to make a move on me and put me on the test. Also, if he has a draw, I'm making him pay dearly for it. So I decided to bet 100 and obv I have to call when he puts in an extra 40 as I need to win 10% of the time to make this break even.River: ($401) 3heart.gif(2 players)Final Pot: $401He flipped over AQ and won the pot. I was shocked and was pissed telling me that I should have folded preflop. But after rethinking my thought process I still think this might be profitable..My question is, do you guys like my thought process ? My self critcism is that even though most of the time I have villain beat I should have waited to play a pot with him when i'm in position and not play A8 OOP...which is a very tricky hand to play OOP and is hard when you don't know much about your opponent....Thoughts?
i just would avoid trying to play A8 on stars, especially if its not suited.
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Short handed against agro I don't mind your play preflop or on the flop in fact deeper stacked I may even check raise this flop then shut it down. The moment he calls your flop bet here you need to shut it down imo.

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Yeah, I don't like the way you played this hand. I don't know, maybe if you were on the button.....but taking a stand with A8 off out of position seems worthless. I think you can get away from the hand after the turn.

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Yeah, I don't like the way you played this hand. I don't know, maybe if you were on the button.....but taking a stand with A8 off out of position seems worthless. I think you can get away from the hand after the turn.
at this point the only hand I'm afraid of is AQ and there are a ton more hands that he could have in which I'm hoping I have fold equity and if he calls we split...the only hand that beats me however is aq because AK or AJ would raise the flop most definetly. So IMO ... I don't know... I hated how I played it b4 but after reviewing my sess on PT and then this I'm starting to think that it might be +EV. Once again, I NEVER resteal with A8 but he was getting out of line with how often he was raising. After the turn, I think I'm stuck in the hand for the reasons I've already give however. If the board didn't pair, I could have gotten away with a check/fold on the turn but after it paired it made one hand beat me, which he happened to have.
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at this point the only hand I'm afraid of is AQ and there are a ton more hands that he could have in which I'm hoping I have fold equity and if he calls we split...the only hand that beats me however is aq because AK or AJ would raise the flop most definetly. So IMO ... I don't know... I hated how I played it b4 but after reviewing my sess on PT and then this I'm starting to think that it might be +EV. Once again, I NEVER resteal with A8 but he was getting out of line with how often he was raising. After the turn, I think I'm stuck in the hand for the reasons I've already give however. If the board didn't pair, I could have gotten away with a check/fold on the turn but after it paired it made one hand beat me, which he happened to have.
why do you say you were only afraid of AQ? After he called your raise, you have to worry about AA, AK, AQ, AJ, A10, A9...etc etc.I guess if you want to make a statement against him, i dont' blame you for the raise preflop, but you have to play it cautiously from there on out.
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at this point the only hand I'm afraid of is AQ and there are a ton more hands that he could have in which I'm hoping I have fold equity and if he calls we split...the only hand that beats me however is aq because AK or AJ would raise the flop most definetly. So IMO ... I don't know... I hated how I played it b4 but after reviewing my sess on PT and then this I'm starting to think that it might be +EV. Once again, I NEVER resteal with A8 but he was getting out of line with how often he was raising. After the turn, I think I'm stuck in the hand for the reasons I've already give however. If the board didn't pair, I could have gotten away with a check/fold on the turn but after it paired it made one hand beat me, which he happened to have.
I get your point with the turn pairing the board getting you stuck to your hand. I don't AK or AJ or JJ or A6 always raise this flop a lot depends on his image of you for that to hold true.
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i'm in the fold pf camp. i understand the desire to push back against the aggressive player, but a8o OOP isn't the hand to do it with. pick a better spot. i would almost rather do this with a suited connector than with a8o because with a connector its pretty easy to get away from if you don't connect. with this hand it gets difficult to let go of, as you can see. honestly, after you reraise and he calls the bet i almost would lean towards c/f the turn. you're in a spot where you're either drawing dead, or drawing to 3 outs, or, best case, he has a ton of outs against you. only in extremely rare cases against really bad players will you be against a weaker ace where you are actually ahead, and, of course, on the turn its irrelevant because any ace you used to beat chops now. when you bet the turn you're doing so to do two things, to make the draws pay and to make the weaker aces fold. the problem is that unless they are a weak player, the only draws still sticking around are big draws, like kqc or axc, its unlikely that they will let go of the hand, although this is your most likely scenario. if they have a weaker ace, well, they are likely not a great player, not laying down a weak ace against a reraise, and they likely won't fold anyways. so you bet in a situation where you're likely to get called when you chop, likely to get called when you're ahead but they have a lot of outs to beat you, and will definitely get called when you're behind. it just doesn't seem like a +EV situation. if this person is bad enough to be in the hand with something that you beat it just seems like there will be much better situations that come up later in the game where you can get their money IMO.

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Why are you defending your blinds in a cash game, especially against a loose player that is going to call you? Did you really think there was any fold equity against an active player? Or did you think you were raising for value with your terrible POS hand? Let's say you did have the best hand PF, by what % would you imagine? The only hands you are holding over is KQ, KJ, etc. and maybe a 109s or something, but it is still essentially a coin flip. If you were raising for value, where you going to be able to call a bet on the flop if you completely missed and only held Ace high? Against a loose player out of position, you have to hit the flop or be able to call him with just a naked ace high. Enough about that, I think it is pretty clear that the reraise PF was out of line. All of my former points are based on a read that you say you picked up on in the 10 minutes you played against this guy. In fact, the whole hand seems to be based on this read, pre flop and post flop. The guy still might be the loosest player alive, but maybe that is where your problem is, a bad read on the player before the cards were even dealt.

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comedy.i just realized the only reason i bothered to dissect and think about this hand at all is because it was posted on here from an online session.then, i further realized i've seen idiotic plays like this with A-rag a hundred times while playing live, and barring the miracle two-pair suckouts, they always play out just as this hand did. it's no more noteworthy than any of them. you tried to make a move with a **** hand, and it cost you way more than it should have.

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at this point the only hand I'm afraid of is AQ and there are a ton more hands that he could have in which I'm hoping I have fold equity and if he calls we split...the only hand that beats me however is aq because AK or AJ would raise the flop most definetly. So IMO ... I don't know... I hated how I played it b4 but after reviewing my sess on PT and then this I'm starting to think that it might be +EV. Once again, I NEVER resteal with A8 but he was getting out of line with how often he was raising. After the turn, I think I'm stuck in the hand for the reasons I've already give however. If the board didn't pair, I could have gotten away with a check/fold on the turn but after it paired it made one hand beat me, which he happened to have.
This logic is not that sound. Saying that someone would definetely raise the flop with AK or AJ just does'nt make sense, many good players will call the flop and once the turn is a blank then push, like he did with the AQ I really dont see much of a difference if he thinks you are drawing its better to put it in with one card to come then with 2. And many players dont' use logic and will still call on the flop and call the turn or push so I would'nt be so sure. Once you get called on the flop the range is skewed highly towards the hands that you do not beat, there are less drawing hands out there and a ton more of combinations that beat you and also that tie you. So majority of the time you are crushed or have a tie (which is slightly less unlikely in most cases) and a small time you are against a draw. So once you bet the flop and are called time to slow way down IMO.
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Lots of friendly people on here today. I understand not being a fan of the reraise oop with A8 but against a lag this isn't horribly out of line in my opinion. I am very surprised that so many people are quick to fold any Ace at a short handed table against a lag...seems like a bit of a invitation to get run over.

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Lots of friendly people on here today. I understand not being a fan of the reraise oop with A8 but against a lag this isn't horribly out of line in my opinion. I am very surprised that so many people are quick to fold any Ace at a short handed table against a lag...seems like a bit of a invitation to get run over.
i don't advocate a fold here. but making the pot bigger when you don't know where your opponent is at with a weak hand OOP is a bad play. i say call, keep the pot small and reevaluate from there. but making the pot huge with a junk hand is a mistake IMO.
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Lots of friendly people on here today. I understand not being a fan of the reraise oop with A8 but against a lag this isn't horribly out of line in my opinion. I am very surprised that so many people are quick to fold any Ace at a short handed table against a lag...seems like a bit of a invitation to get run over.
I don't know. I think I screwed up this hand. I should have let it go and waited for a better spot. My theory for cash games is to play tight OOP and LAG in position. I've been doing it and it works, and for some reason I skewed from that theory and raised with that A8. It's ok to raise this if it's a button raiser and then make a close to pot size contiunation bet on the flop and if he calls or raises to shut down because it's definetly +EV in the long run, but to raise an early raiser was a mistake imo. Yes...it's likely that we are beating him 60% of the time but we're not going to get much value here. And if we make a play it's going to be expensive. It was a bad play that I made and I admit it. It pisses me off but all I can do now is just learn from it. If you'd like to keep discussing this then go ahead but I think I came to the conclusion that it's safer to just muck this to an early raiser than try to resteal. Don't get me wrong, restealing it is the 2nd best option, but the first best option is folding. Calling is just horendous IMO in this spot. I am totally against calling OOP with A rag. It's ok to call OOP with low pockets if you both have deep stacks and believe the player to have a solid holding. But it's better, in the long run, to just get rid of the A8, especially against a LAG. I understand irishguy's belief that BECAUSE he's a LAG we should raise him, but it's simply not going to pay off because he's likely going to call and and you're OOP with a weak hand. You have no edge ont his hand.
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i don't advocate a fold here. but making the pot bigger when you don't know where your opponent is at with a weak hand OOP is a bad play. i say call, keep the pot small and reevaluate from there. but making the pot huge with a junk hand is a mistake IMO.
calling is the worst option IMO. Read the above reply to see why.
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calling is the worst option IMO. Read the above reply to see why.
you're probably right. honestly, i never play these ace rag hands if i don't have to, not sure why i said what i did. i think the key point though is to keep the pots as small as possible if you are playing these hands. ideally you could do this best by folding. but you already know that :club:
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I don't know. I think I screwed up this hand. I should have let it go and waited for a better spot. My theory for cash games is to play tight OOP and LAG in position. I've been doing it and it works, and for some reason I skewed from that theory and raised with that A8. It's ok to raise this if it's a button raiser and then make a close to pot size contiunation bet on the flop and if he calls or raises to shut down because it's definetly +EV in the long run, but to raise an early raiser was a mistake imo. Yes...it's likely that we are beating him 60% of the time but we're not going to get much value here. And if we make a play it's going to be expensive. It was a bad play that I made and I admit it. It pisses me off but all I can do now is just learn from it. If you'd like to keep discussing this then go ahead but I think I came to the conclusion that it's safer to just muck this to an early raiser than try to resteal. Don't get me wrong, restealing it is the 2nd best option, but the first best option is folding. Calling is just horendous IMO in this spot. I am totally against calling OOP with A rag. It's ok to call OOP with low pockets if you both have deep stacks and believe the player to have a solid holding. But it's better, in the long run, to just get rid of the A8, especially against a LAG. I understand irishguy's belief that BECAUSE he's a LAG we should raise him, but it's simply not going to pay off because he's likely going to call and and you're OOP with a weak hand. You have no edge ont his hand.
I'm not saying to always raise oop w a hand like this, just that it isn't as horrendous as others have made it out to be. If I'm lagging it up especially at a short handed table I'm opening the pot from any pos with a lot of garbage hands that I'd toss upon an oop reraise. The benefit of the raise here against a heavy lag is the likelyhood that the pot goes no further. As soon as he calls pre flop its not a hand that you want to be playing for your stack. The flop c-bet is standard but as stated I'd shut down at that point. I think a logical arguement can be made for raising, folding or calling. I agree with you that calling is likely the worst option but it does give you a chance to try and keep the pot small if you feel your Ace is good on the flop. Flat calling pre flop and then check raising the flop into a much smaller pot gives you a ton of info while you lose a smaller pot.Linkwood's point about bloating the pot oop is also very valid but as stated at times when I would raise with a holding like this I'm looking for a fold more than a call.
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