Help With Pre-flop Play

[CorvairShaggy 5]

O.k. Mostly tight table. Standard 3X Pre-flop raises, alot of folds, not alot of showdowns. BB player would occasionally 3- bet to $15 when there was a raise-call, and everyone would fold so this seemed like a winning play for him. Did not pay attention to what position he was in when he made this move. Probably 1st mistake. What I am wondering is how bad was the pre-flop play. My train of thought was raising thinking he was just making moves, and if he called I had flush draw. Was this the wrong cards to try this move with?? I am sure the flop play was horrible, because once he called the pre-flop I assumed he had to have something big. I fell for the C/R trap. Should I have let one peel instead of making a continuation? 3 Hands before we went heads up and I re-raised him on a board that came with 3QK off and he folded, so I would assume he made me for a tight player that only plays high cards, and that is how I was playing this table.Thanks!!CorvairShaggyCake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton ($98.50)SB ($106.70)BB ($146.70)UTG ($101.55)MP ($163.20)Hero (CO) ($94.50)Preflop: Hero is CO with A, 102 folds, Hero bets $3, 1 fold, SB calls $2.50, BB raises to $14.70, Hero raises to $30, 1 fold, BB calls $15.30Flop: ($63) 2, 6, 4(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $31.50, BB raises to $64

[mtdesmoines 3]

O.k. Mostly tight table. Standard 3X Pre-flop raises, alot of folds, not alot of showdowns. BB player would occasionally 3- bet to $15 when there was a raise-call, and everyone would fold so this seemed like a winning play for him. Did not pay attention to what position he was in when he made this move. Probably 1st mistake. What I am wondering is how bad was the pre-flop play. My train of thought was raising thinking he was just making moves, and if he called I had flush draw. Was this the wrong cards to try this move with?? I am sure the flop play was horrible, because once he called the pre-flop I assumed he had to have something big. I fell for the C/R trap. Should I have let one peel instead of making a continuation? 3 Hands before we went heads up and I re-raised him on a board that came with 3QK off and he folded, so I would assume he made me for a tight player that only plays high cards, and that is how I was playing this table.Thanks!!CorvairShaggyCake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton ($98.50)SB ($106.70)BB ($146.70)UTG ($101.55)MP ($163.20)Hero (CO) ($94.50)Preflop: Hero is CO with A, 102 folds, Hero bets $3, 1 fold, SB calls $2.50, BB raises to $14.70, Hero raises to $30, 1 fold, BB calls $15.30Flop: ($63) 2, 6, 4(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $31.50, BB raises to $64

I don't know if you could have played it worse each time action came to you.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Thanks! I figured it was bad, but did not realize it was that bad. So, how would it have been a better way to play? Not play those cards or just limp and fold any raise, or open-raise and lay down to any re-raise? Is A 10 suited that bad of starting hand?CorvairShaggy

[Ninja Ace 1]

Thanks! I figured it was bad, but did not realize it was that bad. So, how would it have been a better way to play? Not play those cards or just limp and fold any raise, or open-raise and lay down to any re-raise? Is A 10 suited that bad of starting hand?CorvairShaggy

first raise was fine but the 4 bet bluff was bad... the size isn't making anyone fold and you're just bloating the pot with a marginal hand... you're getting squeezed and have position so flatting may be ok, but folding certainly never hurts.On the flop, you failed a 4 bet bluff and literally beat like 0 of his range... I'm ok with checking behind

[trystero 0]

this isn't terrible by any means. initial open is obv standard, and if you're going to 4-bet bluff then it's OK to 4-bet so small if you're also doing it for value. maybe a bit more, like to $32.however it is terrible if you had no reason to run a 4bb other than you "felt" he could be making moves. if he's a chronic restealer or squeezer then imo it's a big aggro and possibly spewy but it's bordering on acceptable. if you're just reaching, and overreacting to perhaps a handful of 3-bets, then yeah this is bad.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

this isn't terrible by any means. initial open is obv standard, and if you're going to 4-bet bluff then it's OK to 4-bet so small if you're also doing it for value. maybe a bit more, like to $32.however it is terrible if you had no reason to run a 4bb other than you "felt" he could be making moves. if he's a chronic restealer or squeezer then imo it's a big aggro and possibly spewy but it's bordering on acceptable. if you're just reaching, and overreacting to perhaps a handful of 3-bets, then yeah this is bad.

Thanks for the info!! Basically If you are going to go to 3-4 bet, the you better to be prepared to play the hand as all in, except if you are deep stacked? I felt as if I was pot-committed when I made the bet, but since I missed the flop I should have just shut down there after I have thought about it. Also, seems I need to getter better on my "feelings" on loose players, and if I am going to go against them, have something better than a marginal hand, and be a bit more cautious instead of just "spewing". I'll post back tomorrow night with his hand. I would like to get a comment about how he played it.Thanks!CorvairShaggy

[trystero 0]

hanks for the info!! Basically If you are going to go to 3-4 bet, the you better to be prepared to play the hand as all in, except if you are deep stacked? I felt as if I was pot-committed when I made the bet,

Nah that's not what I'm saying. Kind of the opposite really. Now if you're talking about postflop, then I agree with you, but postflop you shouldn't fire that bet anyhow. Preflop, strategically you want to 4-bet small because you want to be able to run cheap bluffs. Like here you 4-bet so small precisely so that if he does continue in the hand you WON'T feel committed. The problem in this particular case is that villain had squeezed, so his 3-bet was larger than it would be if the pot were HU, and you only began the hand with $96. So these variables combined to make you feel committed.NLHE's taken an interesting evolution. Gigabet (a poster on 2+2) had written about something like a "pressure bet." I don't recall his terminology and I'm not even sure if I'm representing his concept fairly. But his point was that you want to make the bet that puts villain to a decision as to whether or not this pot will be for all of your chips. You want to be able to act last and make a decision as to whether or not you call; this gives him the opportunity to make a mistake. In the past, the ~12bb 3-bet used to be this bet. Players would either shove over the 3-bet or they'd come back raising the size of the pot, not leaving themselves enough money to fold if the 3-bettor were to shove. This gave the 3-bettor a tremendous advantage, because he can play very well against our range. Now to counteract this unfortunate consequence, many players 4-bet small with their entire range (against regs; against fish who cares) so that the pressure is back on villain. Say you had put 28bbs in here. You can get away from this hand easily if you're bluffing, or you can get the chips all-in if you're not (even if he calls, the pot is going to be so huge that you can probably profitably shove or c/c any flop with your premiums). Now HE has to decide if this pot is going to be for all of the chips, and your advantage clearly is that you can respond to whatever he does based upon your holding and his tendencies.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Cool! Thanks for the info. I am starting to understand it now.Now, let's flip it and look at the hand from his perspective. BB had 4c5c. Now, A) Him calling the 4-bet I can kinda see, because he would be risking about 20% of his stack, and if he hits solid then he would get paid. (Implied odds??) Decent play??? B) Since all he had was mid-pair and gut-straight with runner clubs, he checked and I bet 1/2 pot. Since I was a relative tight player, was my half pot bet a sign of weakness and I was cheaply value-betting? I just wonder why he did not put me on a big pair or maybe AK? (Board came low so I could see why he would not be too scared of over cards) Just wondering was my post-flop half pot weak and gave something away or was he just gambling hoping that his pair of 4s would hold up and the chance he would hit his gut-shot or runners for a $93 payday? How Good/Bad was his post flop?Thanks!!CorvairShaggy

[trystero 0]

His pf play is terrible beyond words

[mtdesmoines 3]

His pf play is this hand was played by both of you terrible beyond words

[trystero 0]

That's not true. OP ran a cheap 4bet bluff. PF is fine imo.

[Ninja Ace 1]

That's not true. OP ran a cheap 4bet bluff. PF is fine imo.

4BBs should really be saved for OOP spots

[fighter 4]

That's not true. OP ran a cheap 4bet bluff. PF is fine imo.

+1

[IBFT 0]

That's not true. OP ran a cheap 4bet bluff. PF is fine imo.

Also, if Villain turns up with like AA/KK here, I don't really *hate* it. Its hard to tell what table dynamics and game flow is like in these situations. I would be fine 3-bet calling OOP against someone that I felt was 4-bet bluffing me if I had a big hand. As for hero, I don't see the point in betting this flop. If he has you beat, he's never folding. If you have him beat, he's rarely betting (unless he's an aggrotard, but then you're inducing a bluff instead of value towning yourself)By the way, when I read the title I had a witty retort, and I was going to not say it, but after reading it, it still applies - post flop mistakes are tiny (Unless you're just spewing full stacks preflop for no reason) - tiny mistakes are magnified post flop. Good post flop play will take you much farther than good preflop play.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

I knew the post-flop was bad. What I was trying to learn was what to do when you have a possible squeezer at the table, and how to handle them. From this post it seems that I did o.k. pre, but just blew it post. Since this post I have only ran across this situation once more, but I had AA , so the outcome was much better. Also I play more SNG Ts than cash, so I am still trying to learn all the adjustments. 3/4 bet A-10 in a ring game is something that is above my skill level for now. But I learned from it

[cashman 0]

Also, if Villain turns up with like AA/KK here, I don't really *hate* it. Its hard to tell what table dynamics and game flow is like in these situations. I would be fine 3-bet calling OOP against someone that I felt was 4-bet bluffing me if I had a big hand. As for hero, I don't see the point in betting this flop. If he has you beat, he's never folding. If you have him beat, he's rarely betting (unless he's an aggrotard, but then you're inducing a bluff instead of value towning yourself)By the way, when I read the title I had a witty retort, and I was going to not say it, but after reading it, it still applies - post flop mistakes are tiny (Unless you're just spewing full stacks preflop for no reason) - tiny mistakes are magnified post flop. Good post flop play will take you much farther than good preflop play.