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#61 crowTrobot

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 06:59 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, March 1st, 2010, 10:36 AM, said:

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waiting for spademan to photoshop this.

#62 crowTrobot

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 07:13 AM

View Posttimwakefield, on Monday, March 1st, 2010, 3:42 PM, said:

Regarding the 'God can do anything' discussion - the reason it sometimes strikes me as odd is because Christians often do anthropomorphize God in very specific ways
yup. atheists tend to parse christian claims about god in human terms because christians specifically hypothesize a human-like god.

#63 crowTrobot

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 07:22 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, March 1st, 2010, 4:56 PM, said:

Once you grant the notion that God exist, you leave out any ability to judge any of His actions of His choices.
true but irrelevant. obviously non-believers grant nothing. when a non-believer judges god's actions/choices they are actuallyjudging the truth of human claims about god, not god himself.

#64 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:15 AM

View Postspeedz99, on Monday, March 1st, 2010, 7:38 PM, said:

So the bible is all truth, nothing metaphorical or embelished to make certain points...except for the anthropomorphized picture of God himself, the driving force behing all existance. Riiiiight.
When I say I saw the sun rise, am I trying to fool you with a belief that the sun revolves around the earth?When God says he protects us under His wings, does that mean God has wings like a chicken?And when a Being from outside of time/space who created all known matter and laws wants to give someone like me a set of directions for my life, should he include detailed explanations of neutrino's and their ability to start a fusion reaction by passing through the 20 feet of steel decking on an aircraft carrier.

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True. If you grant the notion of your version of god. Which most of us don't. Which is why there seems to be confusion.
As I said, you God is too small.Misunderstanding the concept of what God means isn't a viable argument for why you think He doesn't exist.In fact changing the meaning of the word God to nothing more than a make believe superman shows the intellectual dishonesty of your side's arguments as a whole.From now on I will change the meaning of the word evolution to mean the purposeful change of life for the sole purpose of creating a fire engine that thinks. Now you see why the whole notion of an ape becoming a man is stupid? This will not bring about Thomas, so there is no justifiable reason to assume that it would happen.
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#65 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:22 AM

View PostSouthern Buddhist, on Monday, March 1st, 2010, 8:01 PM, said:

What about when God himself attributes human flaws to himself?
First you claim a flaw when maybe this isn't one. Second the notion that God is punishing the children is discounted in other verses, so what dos this mean then?That when a person lives a life of sin, their actions can have consequences for future generations.Take a man who gets rich by cheating people, their kids get to live a life of wealth without effort, and with their poor example of ethics from their dad, they often times are equally lacking in morals.So don't live in a way that is an affront to God, because you will probably hurt more than just yourself.
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#66 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:22 AM

View PostSyntonic, on Monday, March 1st, 2010, 10:56 PM, said:

Language we can understand? Please, tell me, how do we understand the definition of omnipotence?
You take the term infinity and add creative powers?
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#67 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:25 AM

View Postvbnautilus, on Monday, March 1st, 2010, 11:24 PM, said:

Even a 95 IQ could understand it!
So you did read it.Why are you so ignorant of what it means then?
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#68 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:29 AM

View PostcrowTrobot, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 7:22 AM, said:

true but irrelevant. obviously non-believers grant nothing. when a non-believer judges god's actions/choices they are actuallyjudging the truth of human claims about god, not god himself.
Not true but relevant.You are purposefully changing the definition of the word God in order to continue with your irrational beliefs.You pretend that you are judging a make believe story so you can puff your chest and pretend your line of thinking has merit.It doesn't.You are so clearly approaching the entire argument that you know there is no God, therefore you are not judging God, well you have already lost the argument and you don't even understand why.
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#69 CaneBrain

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:03 AM

View Posttimwakefield, on Monday, March 1st, 2010, 6:42 PM, said:

99% of athletes thank God for giving them the ability to perform or whatever, not for winning the game for them. The 'Why-don't-you-blame-Jesus-when-you-lose-fallacy' is mildly humorous but is actually not a fallacy at all, as I just explained. Remember how the Saints' kicker pointed to the sky after he missed a field goal (I think he was on the Saints)? And it wasn't an accusatory point towards the sky like 'Dammit Jesus, that one's on you.' He apparently thanks God after every kick, just for blessing him with ability and health and whatever else. Regarding the 'God can do anything' discussion - the reason it sometimes strikes me as odd is because Christians often do anthropomorphize God in very specific ways, giving Him human emotions like anger and describing him as a very distinct, humanistic entity. If He is so all-knowing and all-powerful and all-encompassing, why is He plagued by the same emotional frailties that us, His children are?
If you wrote 99% but meant to write 1%, then we agree.That 1% includes Kurt Warner and Garrett Hartley and that's about it from my experience.The next time a super bowl loser walks off the field and tells the press 'God just decided it was not our day'......you let me know.
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#70 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:08 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 9:03 AM, said:

If you wrote 99% but meant to write 1%, then we agree.That 1% includes Kurt Warner and Garrett Hartley and that's about it from my experience.The next time a super bowl loser walks off the field and tells the press 'God just decided it was not our day'......you let me know.
I think Tim is right.Maybe not about the immediate reaction after losing a game, but an over all opinion of their faith he nailed it.Fellowship of Christian Athletes has a lot of conferences where some of the biggest names in sports speak at all the time.This is the central theme, it's not a big deal to be a winner or loser on the field, but it is a huge deal to be a person who loves God.
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#71 CaneBrain

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:12 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 12:08 PM, said:

I think Tim is right.Maybe not about the immediate reaction after losing a game, but an over all opinion of their faith he nailed it.Fellowship of Christian Athletes has a lot of conferences where some of the biggest names in sports speak at all the time.This is the central theme, it's not a big deal to be a winner or loser on the field, but it is a huge deal to be a person who loves God.
Athletes are giant phonies (on the level of Hollywood actors/actresses) so no I don't agree. But I am sure there are plenty who are very serious about their faith.
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#72 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:24 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 9:12 AM, said:

Athletes are giant phonies (on the level of Hollywood actors/actresses) so no I don't agree. But I am sure there are plenty who are very serious about their faith.
I would not want to place a bet on my position because you are probably pretty close to this over all.
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#73 crowTrobot

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:34 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 8:29 AM, said:

Not true but relevant.You are purposefully changing the definition of the word God in order to continue with your irrational beliefs.You pretend that you are judging a make believe story so you can puff your chest and pretend your line of thinking has merit.It doesn't.You are so clearly approaching the entire argument that you know there is no God, therefore you are not judging God, well you have already lost the argument and you don't even understand why.
boring diversionary rhetoric. all i said was non-believers in these arguments aren't granting the notion that god exists.

#74 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:45 AM

View PostcrowTrobot, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 9:34 AM, said:

boring diversionary rhetoric. all i said was non-believers in these arguments aren't granting the notion that god exists.
Then sit this out.If you can't allow for the argument then your counter argument is wasted space
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#75 crowTrobot

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 11:21 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 9:45 AM, said:

Then sit this out.If you can't allow for the argument then your counter argument is wasted space
this is about whether there is any logical reason to think christian claims about god are compelling,not about god's motives. it started when someone indirectly questioned the truth of the christian tenet ofsalvation based on belief because higher intelligence apparently equates to less chance of belief.in effect this is questioning the truth of the bible - not judging god."we can't understand god's motives" is not evidence the bible is true.

#76 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 11:57 AM

View PostcrowTrobot, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 11:21 AM, said:

this is about whether there is any logical reason to think christian claims about god are compelling,not about god's motives. it started when someone indirectly questioned the truth of the christian tenet ofsalvation based on belief because higher intelligence apparently equates to less chance of belief.in effect this is questioning the truth of the bible - not judging god."we can't understand god's motives" is not evidence the bible is true.
Once again you are wrong.But you don't know why.And I don't feel like enlightening you because I rather enjoy your inability to understand what's going on around you.Good luck
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#77 speedz99

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 12:13 PM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 9:15 AM, said:

When I say I saw the sun rise, am I trying to fool you with a belief that the sun revolves around the earth?
No, your religion finally gave that one up a few hundred years ago...after quite the fight, I might add. Just like evolution will be accepted eventually.

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 9:15 AM, said:

When God says he protects us under His wings, does that mean God has wings like a chicken?
What if he says we're the wind beneath his wings?

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 9:15 AM, said:

And when a Being from outside of time/space who created all known matter and laws wants to give someone like me a set of directions for my life, should he include detailed explanations of neutrino's and their ability to start a fusion reaction by passing through the 20 feet of steel decking on an aircraft carrier.
No, he should dumb things down to the level of idiocy.

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 9:15 AM, said:

As I said, you God is too small.Misunderstanding the concept of what God means isn't a viable argument for why you think He doesn't exist.In fact changing the meaning of the word God to nothing more than a make believe superman shows the intellectual dishonesty of your side's arguments as a whole.
You aren't even close to understanding what I meant. I wasn't saying that "our god" is different from "your god". I was saying that, since we have no particular god (because we're intellectually honest and know that there's no way we could possibly know if there is or is not a god out there (although we do know that it's absurdly unlikely that any god would be similar at all to what you think of it)), it's hard for me to always fully grasp what you're saying because your starting point for any conversation is so far off from mine. I wasn't arguing with you or your view (well, now I did in that last parenthetical debacle) as much as commenting on why no one around here can ever come to any middle ground.We don't misunderstand the concept. We just think it's ridiculous and therefore aren't always able to immediately know what you're trying to say. You know why we have this problem and you don't? Because you're so stuck in your view that we almost always have to have conversations with hypotheticals about YOUR position. We try our best to look at it from your side, which you rarely do the same for us. Which is why to a random observer (or someone that doesn't understand the situation...apparently like you sometimes) it would seem like we're arguing about different "versions" of god.
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#78 Balloon guy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 12:28 PM

View Postspeedz99, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 12:13 PM, said:

No, your religion finally gave that one up a few hundred years ago...after quite the fight, I might add. Just like evolution will be accepted eventually.
You are rewriting history.The church backed the scientist of the day to say the earth was the center of the universe.It was a Christian who said that the earth revolved around the sun.

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What if he says we're the wind beneath his wings?
Then ..um you win

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No, he should dumb things down to the level of idiocy.
What if you're talking to idiots?

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You aren't even close to understanding what I meant. I wasn't saying that "our god" is different from "your god". I was saying that, since we have no particular god (because we're intellectually honest and know that there's no way we could possibly know if there is or is not a god out there (although we do know that it's absurdly unlikely that any god would be similar at all to what you think of it)), it's hard for me to always fully grasp what you're saying because your starting point for any conversation is so far off from mine. I wasn't arguing with you or your view (well, now I did in that last parenthetical debacle) as much as commenting on why no one around here can ever come to any middle ground.We don't misunderstand the concept. We just think it's ridiculous and therefore aren't always able to immediately know what you're trying to say. You know why we have this problem and you don't? Because you're so stuck in your view that we almost always have to have conversations with hypotheticals about YOUR position. We try our best to look at it from your side, which you rarely do the same for us. Which is why to a random observer (or someone that doesn't understand the situation...apparently like you sometimes) it would seem like we're arguing about different "versions" of god.
No, I understood, you guys have created a God you can discount. I am just pointing out that your God is not really a God, but is fact a made up version of a bigger one of us.A God by definition would be all knowing, all powerful and able to do anything He wants for any reason without the ability for you to judge. Because your starting point for understanding Him would be too far removed to have any real validity.Now you can ignore this reality and continue to pretend that you in fact can judge something so much greater and foreign to you as an ant would be judging the principle of lowering taxes to revive a stagnant economy, but it doesn't really county now...does it?Or you can say there is no God, but then you remove yourself from judging His actions also.But what you can't do is say there is no God, and you can prove it because something He does doesn't sit right with you. Unless you want to be like crow and just invent new definitions as you need to in order to keep your blindfold fitting snugly.
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#79 vbnautilus

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 12:49 PM

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A God by definition would be all knowing, all powerful and able to do anything
That's only if your IQ is 95. If you get up to 105, then God by definition would be that which is beyond linguistic concepts and therefore cannot be defined.

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He wants for any reason without the ability for you to judge. Because your starting point for understanding Him would be too far removed to have any real validityNow you can ignore this reality and continue to pretend that you in fact can judge something so much greater and foreign to you as an ant would be judging the principle of lowering taxes to revive a stagnant economy, but it doesn't really county now...does it?Or you can say there is no God, but then you remove yourself from judging His actions also.But what you can't do is say there is no God, and you can prove it because something He does doesn't sit right with you. Unless you want to be like crow and just invent new definitions as you need to in order to keep your blindfold fitting snugly.
And you can see from that perspective that a god that "wants" certain things, "exists" apart from anything else, "judges" or any exhibits other human mental categories is clearly one made up by humans1. 1specifically by those with low IQs

#80 crowTrobot

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 01:14 PM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, 11:57 AM, said:

Once again you are wrong.But you don't know why.And I don't feel like enlightening you because I rather enjoy your inability to understand what's going on around you.Good luck
cop out. you're truly master of debating.




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