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Conquering Mixed Games


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I've become interested in HORSE and 8-Game lately, mostly the $3 STTs but sometimes I'll dabble in the .10/.20 HORSE cash. I like the variety and the challenge of the different games. What I'd like to do in this thread is develop a bit of a strategy guide for beating these low stakes games by summarizing the best way to get an edge over the competition in each of the games, taking into account my own experience and skill. I think it would be helpful for anyone playing these games.In terms of overall strategy, I'm thinking that it's probably best to play tighter and more cautious in games where your edge over the competition is minimized but to take full advantage of your edge in other games, especially in SnGs where you need to be concerned with your chip stack.Let's start with LHE and work our way through the list.LHEDefend your BB a lot in the early stages when stacks are deep. Focus on manipulating postflop action to gain an edge. In large multi-way pots draws gain value, pairs lose value, so try to narrow the field postflop with paired hands. As with NLHE, raising ranges become much wider as the table shortens.LO8The biggest mistakes people make in this game are playing one-way hands and calling down with mediocre lows/low draws. In SnGs, don't waste valuable chips by playing one-way hands. Play very tight early and LAG as the table shortens. Build pots preflop with a wide range to create the odds to draw to various hands.2-7 TDBiggest opposition mistakes here? Probably playing far too many hands and chasing unlikely draws. They will draw out on you sometimes but a focus on good hand selection and driving solid hands when people are still drawing 2+ cards should be a winning strategy here. Play very tight OOP and use position when you have it.StudStill learning to get a feel for this game and don't have enough experience to identify the common mistakes. I would guess that most low stakes players aren't very good at paying attention to live and dead cards, so this can be taken advantage of by paying close attention, not chasing past 4th street, and driving made hands when you think opponents may be drawing to fewer outs. One of the things I find very frustrating about stud-based games is the impact that the antes and bring-ins have on a short stack in the later rounds. To counter this, look for spots to steal the antes and bring-ins when the table is very short. Good hand selection is important in the early rounds.Stud-8Though my experience at Stud is limited I feel my experience with O8 gives me an edge over the micro stakes competition here. Players make the same mistakes they make in O8, overplaying one-way hands and chasing mediocre draws. Combine Stud hand selection strategy with O8 concepts (looking for scoopable hands; not chasing one-way draws; etc.) and look for stealing spots late.RazzNot a huge fan of this game. Good starting hand selection seems to have less of an impact in this game than in other lowball games. Last night I got knocked out of a HORSE SnG in the Razz round when I got it all in on 5th with A346T against my opponent's 2688T, and watched him pull off a miracle when he hit a 4 and 5 and I paired and then double-paired on 6th and 7th streets. The antes and bring-ins also annoy me here in the later stages of SnGs. My plan is to basically nut-peddle these rounds but look for stealing spots late.To be continued...Please feel free to comment and add your own tips/suggestions.

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I actually read most of this (long post :club: )that said im not the best player at all games. lhe you should defend you BB a lot, like way more than in nlhe. limping is generally a bad play. isolate limpers and try not to limp yourself unless you are overlimping the hijack or better. bet/bet/bet/bet in lhe 2-7 is a lot like lhe. if you are drawing less cards that OPP, bet/bet/bet. dont slowplay.these games im real good at if you have any other questions PM me. The other games I kinda suck at. Just have my poker brain database to go off of.

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I actually read most of this (long post :club: )that said im not the best player at all games. lhe you should defend you BB a lot, like way more than in nlhe. limping is generally a bad play. isolate limpers and try not to limp yourself unless you are overlimping the hijack or better. bet/bet/bet/bet in lhe 2-7 is a lot like lhe. if you are drawing less cards that OPP, bet/bet/bet. dont slowplay.these games im real good at if you have any other questions PM me. The other games I kinda suck at. Just have my poker brain database to go off of.
I love it when people think this way in LHE. I think your other advice applies only to the higher stakes.
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some general advice--tailored to my personal strengths, but probably applicable to most people:in LHE, as chris said, you should be defending your bb a lot, although that applies more to semi-deep situations than it does to the inevitable point in a sng where everyone has 4-5BB. the biggest edge you're going to have in LHE, imo, isn't so much your ability to choose hands better than anyone else, but rather your ability to manipulate the postflop action properly. c/r to blow people out of the pot and get things HU. lead into preflop raisers to maximize value on your draws. fold your naked overcards in largely multiway pots to avoid reverse implied situations. that will be where the large part of your edge comes from.in LO8, play very tight early and very LAG when things get short. O8 is a game where people tend to spew a lot of chips if they don't understand things very well, but it's hard to manipulate that properly unless you're playing the right kinds of hands in pots that are going to be largely multiway. when things get short, though, you're probably going to be up against nitty o8 players that don't understand the way that hand values change profoundly in 2way games as things get shorthanded, and you should be able to run them the **** over.in razz, i would play extraordinarily tight early. this is a high variance, low edge game, and in a multigame tournament setting it's not one where you should be gambling a whole lot. there may be idiots, obviously, and you can adapt to take their chips, but the edge anyone with a clue has over others in this game is fairly minimal.stud hi is perhaps the most important game in mixed settings. a good player should have the largest edge here of any game, because there is a lot of information out there, the pots tend to get very large relative to other games, and because it's not a game where very many mixed players feel very comfortable. to a great extent, most stud games fall into one of two categories: either you can run them over by 3betting hands on 3rd with 2+overcards and firing through 5th; or people are far too loose, and you should be concentrating on hands that either draw at straights and flushes or begin with overpairs to everyone else. very, very few people have any idea of when to bluff or semi-bluff in stud hi, so you should be assuming that almost every post-third raise is at least two pair for the most part and play accordingly.in stud8, play tight on 3rd early--3 to a 7 or better, and only raise the ones with high potential--and open way up late, similarly to LO8, to steal those antes. if people obviously are bricking a low draw, and they're not especially good, you can usually raise air even if you don't have anything to represent yourself. PLO- very, very tight/passive preflop and very, very TAG postflop, imo. too much variance here to get very far out of this strategy, and as i said in razz, you don't want to allow any more variance than necessary into sng play.NLHE- most everyone knows how to play NLHE sngs. nitty as all hell, then aggro on the bubble. easy game.2-7- i'd imagine that no one has a goddamn clue in this game, but it's high variance as well, so there's a bit of a mixed bag here. however, it's a game where having a clue against people who don't yields a profoundly ginormous edge. if you're good postdraw and people consistently don't maximize value, you can play all sorts of shit IN POSITION because you'll be playing perfectly against them after the first draw, and you can usually play most reasonable draws even OOP. if the players are semi-competent, though, you'll want to play very tight OOP in order to minimize variance, and you can also lower variance without eating too much in terms of immediate equity if you start playing the spots where you're both drawing equal numbers of cards and your draw isn't especially awesome passively. but as chris said, if you're ahead in terms of the # of cards, bet, bet, bet.another general note: stars has relatively small ante/bringin ratios for the stud variants, so stealing the antes in stud games is of less value and you should be playing tighter than you would on FTP or live. there, i think that's it. gl :club:

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I love it when people think this way in LHE. I think your other advice applies only to the higher stakes.
Does that mean you disagree with his advice?I would have thought it's better to limp more and raise less in LHE because your raises are less likely to thin the field and you can't rely on the PF raise and 1/2-3/4 pot CB that is the bread and butter of NLHE.
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Excellent advice, checky, when I get a chance I'm going to incorporate it into my original post. Maybe this will become the next FCP strategy guide!*EditOne general question about LHE: do drawing hands tend to be more valuable in LHE because it will be cheaper to draw, or are they actually less valuable because the implied odds are reduced? And what about small PP? I would think they would drop in value significantly from NLHE to LHE because you can't stack people.

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Excellent advice, checky, when I get a chance I'm going to incorporate it into my original post. Maybe this will become the next FCP strategy guide!*EditOne general question about LHE: do drawing hands tend to be more valuable in LHE because it will be cheaper to draw, or are they actually less valuable because the implied odds are reduced?
this is a big "it depends." :club: it's hard to say anything beyond "know how your opponents play postflop, both in position and out of position," and play accordingly. it's important to note, though, that if you have any two cards facing a HU raise on the bb, you're getting an immediate 3:1 on your odds, and if they c-bet every time, you're basically getting 4:1.
And what about small PP? I would think they would drop in value significantly from NLHE to LHE because you can't stack people.
hard to say. i 3bet pocket pairs against most players in SHLHE in order to keep myself appearing unpredictable, but others don't, so it's a bit of a judgment call here, too.edit: as to value in general in LHE, i would think about a few different sorts of spots:1. hu situations--almost any hand plays ok here, since the value of any pair goes up significantly when you only have to dodge two cards (and raising ranges are often wide in SHLHE). high cards often have showdown value unpaired, too.2. 3-4 way situations--here is where hands get iffy. stuff like 910 gets dominated fairly often, so the one-pair value of your hand goes down, but draws start becoming more promising in multiway pots. so the 88 possibility for 78h isn't as worthwhile, but the flush and str8 possibilities are more so, if that makes sense. you're also going to be getting really good odds in these spots, 7-8:1 usually, so you can often think "hit hard or go home" against a lot of players.3. largely multiway spots--single pairs lose a lot of value, draws gain a lot of value. it's almost easier to play 78h than AK in these sorts of spots. you're going to have to manipulate postflop action to minimize the field on the flop with pairs, and pump pots with draws.
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stud8 - play pairs late on and forget about hands like 356r. Steal with Ace doorPLO - if you have a large stack raise with all large pairs(ds especially), and outflop your opponents - otherwise foldfold most razz hands late on if you're not a large stack(apart from steals).Steal in most of the stud games if the doorcards warrant it, otherwise don't get involved.

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w/ Razz starting hands is way MORE important than the other games. Razz is math. Yes you hit ugly hands from mouthbreathers, but start solid and win in that game. And obv. steal when profitable late.
Razz is the easiest game there is. When I first started playing razz, I just gave my opponent credit for an A2 in the hole and judging by their up cards, you know if you are ahead or behind, and, if you are behind knowing what cards will make a better low.
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stud8 - play pairs late on and forget about hands like 356r. Steal with Ace doorPLO - if you have a large stack raise with all large pairs(ds especially), and outflop your opponents - otherwise foldfold most razz hands late on if you're not a large stack(apart from steals).Steal in most of the stud games if the doorcards warrant it, otherwise don't get involved.
What?!? :club: Like in what situation?
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Razz is the easiest game there is. When I first started playing razz, I just gave my opponent credit for an A2 in the hole and judging by their up cards, you know if you are ahead or behind, and, if you are behind knowing what cards will make a better low.
Which would mean you'll end folding a whole lot of hands, no? Can you really play that way profitably when the antes and bring-ins are always eating away at your stack?
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It was my understanding that if 4's, deuces, or 7's are live for the most part, 356 rainbow is an awesome hand.Said it twice to reiterate my point.
It's actually alot weaker when the blinds and antes are high in relation to the number of bets you have in tournament poker. Big pairs play much better since they can't brick out.
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some general advice--tailored to my personal strengths, but probably applicable to most people:in LHE, as chris said, you should be defending your bb a lot, although that applies more to semi-deep situations than it does to the inevitable point in a sng where everyone has 4-5BB. the biggest edge you're going to have in LHE, imo, isn't so much your ability to choose hands better than anyone else, but rather your ability to manipulate the postflop action properly. c/r to blow people out of the pot and get things HU. lead into preflop raisers to maximize value on your draws. fold your naked overcards in largely multiway pots to avoid reverse implied situations. that will be where the large part of your edge comes from.in LO8, play very tight early and very LAG when things get short. O8 is a game where people tend to spew a lot of chips if they don't understand things very well, but it's hard to manipulate that properly unless you're playing the right kinds of hands in pots that are going to be largely multiway. when things get short, though, you're probably going to be up against nitty o8 players that don't understand the way that hand values change profoundly in 2way games as things get shorthanded, and you should be able to run them the **** over.in razz, i would play extraordinarily tight early. this is a high variance, low edge game, and in a multigame tournament setting it's not one where you should be gambling a whole lot. there may be idiots, obviously, and you can adapt to take their chips, but the edge anyone with a clue has over others in this game is fairly minimal.stud hi is perhaps the most important game in mixed settings. a good player should have the largest edge here of any game, because there is a lot of information out there, the pots tend to get very large relative to other games, and because it's not a game where very many mixed players feel very comfortable. to a great extent, most stud games fall into one of two categories: either you can run them over by 3betting hands on 3rd with 2+overcards and firing through 5th; or people are far too loose, and you should be concentrating on hands that either draw at straights and flushes or begin with overpairs to everyone else. very, very few people have any idea of when to bluff or semi-bluff in stud hi, so you should be assuming that almost every post-third raise is at least two pair for the most part and play accordingly.in stud8, play tight on 3rd early--3 to a 7 or better, and only raise the ones with high potential--and open way up late, similarly to LO8, to steal those antes. if people obviously are bricking a low draw, and they're not especially good, you can usually raise air even if you don't have anything to represent yourself. PLO- very, very tight/passive preflop and very, very TAG postflop, imo. too much variance here to get very far out of this strategy, and as i said in razz, you don't want to allow any more variance than necessary into sng play.NLHE- most everyone knows how to play NLHE sngs. nitty as all hell, then aggro on the bubble. easy game.2-7- i'd imagine that no one has a goddamn clue in this game, but it's high variance as well, so there's a bit of a mixed bag here. however, it's a game where having a clue against people who don't yields a profoundly ginormous edge. if you're good postdraw and people consistently don't maximize value, you can play all sorts of shit IN POSITION because you'll be playing perfectly against them after the first draw, and you can usually play most reasonable draws even OOP. if the players are semi-competent, though, you'll want to play very tight OOP in order to minimize variance, and you can also lower variance without eating too much in terms of immediate equity if you start playing the spots where you're both drawing equal numbers of cards and your draw isn't especially awesome passively. but as chris said, if you're ahead in terms of the # of cards, bet, bet, bet.another general note: stars has relatively small ante/bringin ratios for the stud variants, so stealing the antes in stud games is of less value and you should be playing tighter than you would on FTP or live. there, i think that's it. gl :club:
Agreed, but I do a few things different according to my strengths and weaknesses.
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Oh I thought we were talking cash, but I didnt know that that applied in tourneys.
Don't worry, most players in HORSE STT/MTT won't really appreciate it either.
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Well I just learned a painful lesson: micro stakes donks can't be bluffed in 2-7 TD. I picked a perfect bluffing spot, too. HU pot in the middle of an 8-game SnG, SB completes, I check in the BB with 247TT. He draws 3, I draw 1 (one of the T's) and get a Q. He leads the flop, I call figuring he has bunk. He draws 1, I dump the Q and pair the 7 (sigh). He checks to me, I check behind. He draws 1 again, I draw 1 (and get another damn T). He checks to me, I lead for 320 chips (of my 1300). He has about 1600 left, thinks about it, and calls. Flips over a paired 5 hand and takes the pot. I type "you called with that?" in the chatbox, to which he replies "I was praying you hit a bigger pair."Busted out of a couple more mixed SnGs tonight, one HORSE and one 8-Game. I'm noticing that I seem to lose most of my chips on Razz hands that start great and go nowhere. That and 2-7 TD in 8-Game. I feel pretty confident in how I'm playing the other games, so I really need to minimize my losses in the high variance games, especially Razz.

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Three materials that I really found helpful for learning these games:I hear a certain poker pro wrote a great chapter in Super System II on 2-7 TD B) I liked Jeff Hwang's ideas in Pot Limit Omaha Poker. The basics really helped open my eyes with PLO, and there's some helpful material on LO8 as well.Cheesy as it sounds, Ken Warren's new book on 7 Card Stud has a TON of material and principles on Stud, Stud8 and Razz that I think would help anyone who is looking to build a foundation for solid play on all streets. There's more in this book than the usual Warren offerings, as Stud is clearly his strength.In tournament play, everyone above has already harped on the one key adjustment: open up and get more aggressive later, as the rest of the table nits up and tries to make the money. This should help you power ahead more often than not.And yeah, bluffing, especially in the low stakes, tends not to work too well. The best I can recommend is semi-bluffing with draws in the stud games to represent other hands and perhaps disguise your hand should it hit.

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Well I just learned a painful lesson: micro stakes donks can't be bluffed in 2-7 TD. I picked a perfect bluffing spot, too. HU pot in the middle of an 8-game SnG, SB completes, I check in the BB with 247TT. He draws 3, I draw 1 (one of the T's) and get a Q. He leads the flop, I call figuring he has bunk. He draws 1, I dump the Q and pair the 7 (sigh). He checks to me, I check behind. He draws 1 again, I draw 1 (and get another damn T). He checks to me, I lead for 320 chips (of my 1300). He has about 1600 left, thinks about it, and calls. Flips over a paired 5 hand and takes the pot. I type "you called with that?" in the chatbox, to which he replies "I was praying you hit a bigger pair."Busted out of a couple more mixed SnGs tonight, one HORSE and one 8-Game. I'm noticing that I seem to lose most of my chips on Razz hands that start great and go nowhere. That and 2-7 TD in 8-Game. I feel pretty confident in how I'm playing the other games, so I really need to minimize my losses in the high variance games, especially Razz.
there is never a reason to bluff like that unless you are playing against players who you know to be good.
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