Buddhism

[Southern Buddhist 1]

I don't want to proselytize, but I'll answer any questions anyone has.Just for a topic starter:1) The Buddha was a human, not a god, and most Buddhists do not pray to him, or ask favors of him, or think of him as a god. Enlightenment is all about our own personal effort. Buddha showed how to do it, but he can't do it for you.2) The Four Noble Truths: 1) Life is suffering 2) The cause of suffering is grasping 3) To end suffering, we must cease grasping 4) The way to cease grasping is the Eightfold Path.3) The Eightfold Path: Often divided into three parts, which cover wisdom, ethics, and discipline Wisdom: 1) Right View 2) Right Motivation Ethics: 3) Right Speech 4) Right Action 5) Right Livelihood Discipline: 6) Right Effort 7) Right Mindfulness 8) Right Concentration

[jmkiser 0]

I don't want to proselytize, but I'll answer any questions anyone has.Just for a topic starter:1) The Buddha was a human, not a god, and most Buddhists do not pray to him, or ask favors of him, or think of him as a god. Enlightenment is all about our own personal effort. Buddha showed how to do it, but he can't do it for you.2) The Four Noble Truths: 1) Life is suffering 2) The cause of suffering is grasping 3) To end suffering, we must cease grasping 4) The way to cease grasping is the Eightfold Path.3) The Eightfold Path: Often divided into three parts, which cover wisdom, ethics, and discipline Wisdom: 1) Right View 2) Right Motivation Ethics: 3) Right Speech 4) Right Action 5) Right Livelihood Discipline: 6) Right Effort 7) Right Mindfulness 8) Right Concentration

Very interesting.If this was to be the focus of someone who wasn't a Buddha, would that person be considered Buddhist any way? How would one become a Buddhist?Are there any traditions that you practice?Give us some more

[PrtyPSux 0]

I think all religion is stupid, but as far as religion goes Buddhism is by far the smartest one imo, a religion with no god and a conviction for self improvement is definitely a step in the right direction. I don't know enough about Buddhists though to comment on specifics, I like the fact that they meditate and believe in being good and honest people but I don't know much else. I might be misjudging but don't they look forward to death and suffering too much? Is abundance and prosperity as far as money and material possessions considered a bad thing in Buddhism? I've read a few books on Zen and stuff like that and it's all interesting, the other day I actually got invited to a buddhist meditation group but chose not to go because I felt like they would try and pressure me into being buddhist and stuff.

[timwakefield 68]

Old old thread about Buddhism

[checkymcfold 0]

I don't want to proselytize, but I'll answer any questions anyone has.Just for a topic starter:1) The Buddha was a human, not a god, and most Buddhists do not pray to him, or ask favors of him, or think of him as a god. Enlightenment is all about our own personal effort. Buddha showed how to do it, but he can't do it for you.2) The Four Noble Truths: 1) Life is suffering 2) The cause of suffering is grasping 3) To end suffering, we must cease grasping 4) The way to cease grasping is the Eightfold Path.3) The Eightfold Path: Often divided into three parts, which cover wisdom, ethics, and discipline Wisdom: 1) Right View 2) Right Motivation Ethics: 3) Right Speech 4) Right Action 5) Right Livelihood Discipline: 6) Right Effort 7) Right Mindfulness 8) Right Concentration

just to clarify, the idea of the four noble truths as often translated into western languages can lead to buddhism sounding a bit more christian than it really is. "suffering" as it is meant in the context of the four noble truths actually just refers to an innate deficiency to the (false) material world, and a sort of general malaise that goes along with paying too much attention to it. it's certainly not "suffering" in the christian sense, wherein one actually feels emotional pain when thinking about one's own fall from eden or christ or whatever. the image of the buddha smiling and laughing is often intended to illustrate that when one removes his/her attachment to physicality, so too is that sort of malaise removed, and one can really be pretty much jovial all the time.good thread, though. i agree that we talk too much about christianity in here (and science, too, for that matter ).

[timwakefield 68]

just to clarify, the idea of the four noble truths as often translated into western languages can lead to buddhism sounding a bit more christian than it really is. "suffering" as it is meant in the context of the four noble truths actually just refers to an innate deficiency to the (false) material world, and a sort of general malaise that goes along with paying too much attention to it. it's certainly not "suffering" in the christian sense, wherein one actually feels emotional pain when thinking about one's own fall from eden or christ or whatever. the image of the buddha smiling and laughing is often intended to illustrate that when one removes his/her attachment to physicality, so too is that sort of malaise removed, and one can really be pretty much jovial all the time.

Just to add on a little, "suffering" is the usual translation of the Sanskrit word 'dukkha,' which as you said is closer to something like 'uneasiness' than suffering in the normal sense.The Dalai Lama speeks on the Four Noble TruthsP.S. Skip the first 10 minutes to get to His Holiness .

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Very interesting.If this was to be the focus of someone who wasn't a Buddha, would that person be considered Buddhist any way? How would one become a Buddhist?Are there any traditions that you practice?Give us some more

Good questions! If someone was simply a very deeply ethical person committed to becoming wiser and kinder, but not specifically claiming Buddhism as his/her faith, then I wouldn't consider them a Buddhist -- just a real stand-up kind of person. We don't have much tradition of "claiming" people to be ours unless they claim themselves to be first.In America, at least, you pretty much just say you are. More traditionally, you should make a vow to follow at least the five precepts (Buddhism, for some reason, is INCREDIBLY fond of lists):1) not to kill (which is generally taken as including animals and so is the basis for being vegetarian)2) not to steal3) not to commit sexual misconduct (this isn't just adultery, but any kind of sexuality that harms others, like harassment or maybe fetishes that objectify others, etc.)4) not to speak without mindfulness (you've probably heard this phrased as follows: one should ask oneself before speaking, "is this kind?", "is it necessary?", and "is it true?")5) not to be intoxicated (some hardcore buddhists take that as meaning, "don't drink." Others just take it to mean, don't be a drunk all the time, because where's your mindfulness then? Me, I love a good margarita, or kamikaze, or Zen green tea liqueur ... but I drink to relax and have fun rather than to get shit-faced wasted.)There is really an emerging American Buddhism that most Americans can be said to practice, one that is laidback about traditions but big on freedom and individuality. In truth, I probably really practice that more than anything. In terms of practices people would recognize, I practice Zen. It's the most austere practice, not having a lot of statues or mantras or anything like that, but highly focused on clarity and understanding. If you've heard a lot of things that sound like paradoxes, like the sound of one hand clapping, or stories about masters beating students, that's Zen.Ultimately, Buddhism is about the here and now, and what practices a person can undertake to perfect this moment, and the one after that, and the one after that. It is an unending process of asking yourself, “where is my mind right now? Am I living up to my fullest potential right now?” In fact, my favorite Zen story is about a woman who sought out a Zen master and explained that she was very determined to achieve enlightenment. “Are you sure?” the Zen master asked. “Are you willing to give yourself over completely to seeking it?” When the woman assured him that she was, the Zen master immediately turned into a demon that attached itself permanently to the woman’s back and stayed there for the rest of her life, screaming endlessly, “Now! Now! Now! Now!”That's pretty much Zen in a nutshell -- it kind of sounds like a joke, but the serious meaning is "what are you doing right now to be a better person? Okay, that moment's over and done with....what are you doing now?"

[Southern Buddhist 1]

I think all religion is stupid, but as far as religion goes Buddhism is by far the smartest one imo, a religion with no god and a conviction for self improvement is definitely a step in the right direction. I don't know enough about Buddhists though to comment on specifics, I like the fact that they meditate and believe in being good and honest people but I don't know much else. I might be misjudging but don't they look forward to death and suffering too much? Is abundance and prosperity as far as money and material possessions considered a bad thing in Buddhism? I've read a few books on Zen and stuff like that and it's all interesting, the other day I actually got invited to a buddhist meditation group but chose not to go because I felt like they would try and pressure me into being buddhist and stuff.

Actually, that's a really good question, too. People do seem to have the idea that Buddhists are death-obsessed. In my experience, it's just the opposite. The teaching about death is to remind you that time is short and every minute you're alive is precious and shouldn't be wasted. I don't know which came first for me...I've only been a Buddhist for about ten years or so, but for a long time now I've had the sense that time is shorter than most people realize. My attitude is "let's do it right now, no time like the present." I certainly procrastinate about plenty of things (for example, right now I'm supposed to be writing a book about ... Buddhism, for a university publisher, but I'm here instead). But I'm always in a hurry to get my dreams accomplished, or to go on a new adventure. Just thinking about my response to you, I kind of shocked myself to realize that off the top of my head, I know about ten people who died before they were fifty -- four of them before they were THIRTY!!! [And one of them my dad, who raised me as a single parent and died at 44.] Maybe that gave me the sense that time is precious, or maybe that inclined me more toward Buddhism, and it was Buddhism that gave me that sense. I don't know, but the teaching is definitely not that death should be embraced, but rather that life should be.Whether Buddhists are anti-materialistic is another good point. I do think they are. I am myself. I don't think I'd be comfortable being rich unless I could give it away. I'm really hyperaware of suffering in the world -- not in the weirdly, sickly voyeuristic way that television is, which only aims to arouse pity but not action, but in the sense that I really want to find ways to make the world better (under "Daniel's blog" forum, there's an old-ish thread about Malcolm Gladwell's book _Blink_ and I was explaining there a PBS documentary I'm going to try to create about issues in global development). If you wanted to be rich and decided that Buddhism wouldn't be right for you, I wouldn't see that as a bad thing, or you as a bad person. That would be a fair judgment call on your part, and everyone chooses their own path. Honestly, it would be nice if I could be comfortably, un-guilt-ily blissed out in a spa (if I had the money, that is). But I'm not built that way. So yeah, prosperity is probably kind of seen as a bad thing -- and that's kind of a mistake on our part as Buddhists, because there's nothing inherently bad about it. But because it's not our way, we try really hard not to judge people for being prosperous.Me, I woudn't pressure you to be a Buddhist, but I'm the queen of chill.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

just to clarify, the idea of the four noble truths as often translated into western languages can lead to buddhism sounding a bit more christian than it really is. "suffering" as it is meant in the context of the four noble truths actually just refers to an innate deficiency to the (false) material world, and a sort of general malaise that goes along with paying too much attention to it. it's certainly not "suffering" in the christian sense, wherein one actually feels emotional pain when thinking about one's own fall from eden or christ or whatever. the image of the buddha smiling and laughing is often intended to illustrate that when one removes his/her attachment to physicality, so too is that sort of malaise removed, and one can really be pretty much jovial all the time.good thread, though. i agree that we talk too much about christianity in here (and science, too, for that matter ).

Bingo, about the definition of suffering. You're exactly right. And thanks for the link to the old thread, for us noobs. I'll go read it now. Tim, I bow in honor to your 7,000 posts and your Zoidberg avie. The "pon farr" episode on his home planet is one of my absolute favorites. But my all-time favorite line from the show is "Listen, this is going to be one hell of a bowel movement. Afterwards, he'll be lucky if he has any bones left."

[crowTrobot 2]

good thread, though. i agree that we talk too much about christianity in here (and science, too, for that matter ).

weeell...since YOU brought it up lol, the dalai lama might be the single most influential proponent of the importance of science in the world today

[timwakefield 68]

(Buddhism, for some reason, is INCREDIBLY fond of lists):

Funny because it's true.

weeell...since YOU brought it up lol, the dalai lama might be the single most influential proponent of the importance of science in the world today

This also may be true.

[timwakefield 68]

1) not to kill (which is generally taken as including animals and so is the basis for being vegetarian)

I just wanted to mention also that Tibetan Buddhists like the Dalai Lama generally do eat meat, since in Tibet there isn't much else besides yaks. But even now (now that they have been invaded by the Chinese and kicked out/murdered), Tibetan monks and Buddhists living in America and India often still eat meat.Also, here's a nice illustration of the Dalai Lama's way of thinking imo: (from wikipedia) As he explains in his book, "homosexuality, whether it is between men or between women, is not improper in itself. What is improper is the use of organs already defined as inappropriate for sexual contact." However, more recently (1997) he has said that the basis of this teaching was unknown to him and that he has "willingness to consider the possibility that some of the teachings may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context."Now that's a pretty enlightened (no pun intended?) view for a major religious leader to take if you ask me.

[checkymcfold 0]

weeell...since YOU brought it up lol, the dalai lama might be the single most influential proponent of the importance of science in the world today

lol i know that, silly. i think you and i agree a lot more than you think we do, but i have a very different idea of how to get there, imo .

[longshottwelve 0]

I don't want to proselytize, but I'll answer any questions anyone has.Just for a topic starter:1) The Buddha was a human, not a god, and most Buddhists do not pray to him, or ask favors of him, or think of him as a god. Enlightenment is all about our own personal effort. Buddha showed how to do it, but he can't do it for you.2) The Four Noble Truths: 1) Life is suffering 2) The cause of suffering is grasping 3) To end suffering, we must cease grasping 4) The way to cease grasping is the Eightfold Path.3) The Eightfold Path: Often divided into three parts, which cover wisdom, ethics, and discipline Wisdom: 1) Right View 2) Right Motivation Ethics: 3) Right Speech 4) Right Action 5) Right Livelihood Discipline: 6) Right Effort 7) Right Mindfulness 8) Right Concentration

Question about this- The way I read Buddhism as being, is that "grasping" is in reference to everything earthly that we can care about. This not only being things such as money, HD TVs, Blu-ray, Nintendo Wii, etc. but also my wife, kids, mom, dad, and grandma. Basically, anything that causes suffering to lose is deemed an obstacle in reaching Nirvana. (if this is way off let me know)It always seemed to me that we as humans have certain base characteristics that define us. There are the things we share with animals such as greed and jealousy; things we outdo the animal kingdom in, such as sexual desire (not only do we want to have sex with a variety of other people, but we try and find unique and sometimes demented ways to make it better for us); and things that seem unique only to us such as identification ei. I am Joe, I am a file clerk, I like long walks on the beach etc, etc.I understand Buddha stressing a middle ground, what with the eating of the rice and the gurus and all that, but the noble truths still seem pretty harsh to me.A) Do you you think that by ceasing to grasp we get rid of all that makes us human?B ) Do you think that anyone ever achieves perfection?C) I read the Eightfold Path as a basic moral template, not unlike the Ten Commandments. Is it accepting that we will falter, or does it demand that we follow it to a T or never reach our final destination?

[timwakefield 68]

B ) Do you think that anyone ever achieves perfection?C) I read the Eightfold Path as a basic moral template, not unlike the Ten Commandments. Is it accepting that we will falter, or does it demand that we follow it to a T or never reach our final destination?

I can at least partially answer these. As far as enlightenment (perfection, nirvana), there are debates of course. Generally it is thought that very very few people achieve enlightenment...in this lifetime. I believe that some Buddhists think that there have not been truly enlightened persons for hundreds and hundreds of years.As far as faltering - Buddhists monks take a vow to live by the Eightfold noble path. But the vast majority of Buddhists are laypeople like us, not monks. Also though, (iirc) most Buddhists believe that all sentient beings will eventually reach enlightenment in lifetimes eons into the future from now, after future Buddhas make appearances on earth. The time during the life of a Buddha and the few hundred years following his life are considered times of great enlightenment among followers.

[checkymcfold 0]

A) Do you you think that by ceasing to grasp we get rid of all that makes us human?B ) Do you think that anyone ever achieves perfection?C) I read the Eightfold Path as a basic moral template, not unlike the Ten Commandments. Is it accepting that we will falter, or does it demand that we follow it to a T or never reach our final destination?

tim answered these too, but i'll offer some of my own answers as well.a) buddhists (and hindus, fwiw) would argue that by ceasing to grasp we get rid of all that keeps us from being what we truly are, which, i suppose is something like we'd understand consciousness in a general sense, but that's a little too vague (i can talk more about it if you want, but it's long and would require a lot of context). for buddhists, being simply human isn't the best we can be. we have to strive for buddhahood, a path that takes multiple, sometimes thousands of, lifetimes to achieve. aside: in hinduism, and in some buddhist schools, there are people that are enlightened, called arhats, but they're not like full-fledged buddhas. i've never really gotten a satisfying answer as to what makes an arhat different from a buddha, but it's probably worth mentioning.B) i don't really like the word "perfection" in the buddhist context. it's more a ridding oneself of imperfections to let a sort of natural perfection shine through. that's a very big difference between buddhism and, say, christianity. in the former, the soul or whatever doesn't need to be worked on to achieve what it's supposed to, it just needs to be un-misled by the material world, a process you have to fundamentally do by yourself. in the latter, though, that original sin thing makes things quite different--you have to search for an external source through which your soul might be re-perfected, and it's not, in a sense, up to you. c) i wouldn't compare the eightfold path to the ten commandments at all. in buddhism, there isn't a cleansing act of repentance or anything like that, which would be more how christians atone for their fuckups along the way. rather, it's something more like just forgetting the whoopsies of the past, since they occurred in the material world, anyhow, and hence weren't "real" in the proper sense. that's overstating things a little bit, but it should give you a good idea of a good point of contrast between east asian religion and western christianity in general. edit: it's also worth saying that in christianity, it's kinda a "you did it well enough, and get to go to heaven," or a "you didn't do a good job of it, and you're going to hell" type thing. in buddhism, not at all. if you messed things up too badly, you just get reborn a few steps down the ladder to enlightenment and have to work your way back up.

[checkymcfold 0]

"willingness to consider the possibility that some of the teachings may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context."

i just wanted that to stand out a little bit more

[timwakefield 68]

Yes as checky said, the eightfold path is not something where if you don't follow it you are a bad person, it is just the path to take to rid yourself of desire (suffering). But you don't need to reach nirvana to benefit from things like 'right mindfulness' and 'right speech.' Here is the Eightfold Noble Path as told by Buddha, who basically invented it:

"Monks, what is the noble eightfold path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view."And what is right resolve? Resolve aimed at freedom from sensuality, at freedom from ill will, at harmlessness: This is called right resolve."And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from unchastity. This is called right action."And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood."And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds, & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort."And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness."And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."- Samyutta Nikaya (The Grouped Discourses)

And here is something from the Anguttara Nikaya (The Further-factored Discourses) about the eightfold path as it applies to laypeople:

Right Action & Right Speech for Lay People"Abandoning sensual misconduct, he abstains from sensual misconduct. He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man."Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty (i.e., a royal court proceeding), if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward."

So, the eightfold path is originally laid out for monks, but is not only applicable to monks. By the way both of those passages are (canonically) the Buddha's words. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/index.html

[timwakefield 68]

Cross-posted from 'lost & confused' thread:This is the very simple and understandable basis of the religion, at least in my words and my understanding: Everything that you are, that you know, and that you experience is temporary (fleeting). What causes people discomfort is an attachment to these things, a desire for something. Like if you are sick you desire to be well, if you are married and your spouse dies you desire to have them back. So the path to happiness is to rid yourself of desire.Now, this may at first sound very cold, but it's just the opposite. Buddhists monks are the warmest, friendliest, happiest people I've ever met. The idea is not to stop loving your mother because you will be sad when she dies, the idea is to realize that the present moment is all that you can ever exist in, and even that is fleeting, and that you should love everything and everyone in that moment. Of course the idea of reincarnation helps allay fear of death, but it also explains/helps in the ability to detach one's self from the material world, and to love all creatures. As told to me by a Tibetan lama (monk) - 'You don't kill bugs because your mother could be a bug in another life.' It's a beautiful way to think if you ask me.So, because of the emphsis on the here and now, Buddhists are not particularly interested in creation myths. They do not have a creator god, and certainly do not worship the Buddha as a god (although he is often worshiped). So you've got God created the earth in 7 days and adam and eve and the flood and all that, vs a religion that says all animals are related and there is no god and all that exists is your mind.

[lordofelt 0]

Cross-posted from 'lost & confused' thread:This is the very simple and understandable basis of the religion, at least in my words and my understanding: Everything that you are, that you know, and that you experience is temporary (fleeting). What causes people discomfort is an attachment to these things, a desire for something. Like if you are sick you desire to be well, if you are married and your spouse dies you desire to have them back. So the path to happiness is to rid yourself of desire.Now, this may at first sound very cold, but it's just the opposite. Buddhists monks are the warmest, friendliest, happiest people I've ever met. The idea is not to stop loving your mother because you will be sad when she dies, the idea is to realize that the present moment is all that you can ever exist in, and even that is fleeting, and that you should love everything and everyone in that moment. Of course the idea of reincarnation helps allay fear of death, but it also explains/helps in the ability to detach one's self from the material world, and to love all creatures. As told to me by a Tibetan lama (monk) - 'You don't kill bugs because your mother could be a bug in another life.' It's a beautiful way to think if you ask me.So, because of the emphsis on the here and now, Buddhists are not particularly interested in creation myths. They do not have a creator god, and certainly do not worship the Buddha as a god (although he is often worshiped).

Thanks for this explanation and interpretation on "ridding yourself of desire". At first I to thought that it sounded very cold almost like "If I never love anything or anyone then I'll never be hurt" which is indeed quite depressing the "live in the here and now" is much more uplifting I believe.I've been reading up on Buddhism a good bit recently trying to understand it more and from what I've learned thus far I quite like it I was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me.I've talked to people about Buddhism who seem to know more than me and it was explained to me that Buddhism has the "philosophical" and the "super-natural" sides. Basically that most of Buddhism is devoted to the philosophy of how we should live our lives etc basically the eight fold path, but Buddhims also obviously has its super-natural reincarnation views.My question is basically what do Buddhist's think of people taking on the eightfold path but rejecting the view of reincarnation? Also Buddhism generally seems to be the most allowing and free-flowing religion of the world compared to Christianity or Islam or Judiasm and I was wondering if you think this is due to the lack of hierachy and no central authority ala the pope in Catholicsm?Interested to hear whatever you have to say on this.

[timwakefield 68]

My question is basically what do Buddhist's think of people taking on the eightfold path but rejecting the view of reincarnation? Also Buddhism generally seems to be the most allowing and free-flowing religion of the world compared to Christianity or Islam or Judiasm and I was wondering if you think this is due to the lack of hierachy and no central authority ala the pope in Catholicsm?Interested to hear whatever you have to say on this.

Well, as far as the first question, the eightfold path is laid out for monks to follow as a path towards enlightenment. It's not meant as a strict way for a lay Buddhist to live (note that one of the 'folds' is to remain chaste), and for monks it's simply the path that Buddha found which lead him to enlightenment. It's not like you get in trouble for not following it, although if you are practicing meditation or zen study as a monk in a monastery you would get in trouble for not following their rules. As far as hierarchy, well in Tibetan Buddhism there is the Dalai Lama (who is chosen by way of discovery...as in, a few years after he dies they discover his reincarnated self in a child, although the 14th and current Dalai Lama has actually suggested that a general vote be held among Tibetans in exile about whether his successor should be chosen the traditional way or not). There is also a hierarchy of lamas somewhat similar to the bishops and archbishops in Catholicism, and the Dalai Lama acts as spiritual and political leader of Tibet. But that is just Tibetan Buddhism, and unlike the Pope who is chosen as an adult by Cardinals, the Dalai Lama is considered to be a reincarnation of Chenrezig, (Avalokiteśvara in Sanskrit), the bodhisattva of compassion, and is brought up from the age of 4 or 5 to be the leader of his people. But yeah, you certainly don't have to take a vow or anything to be a Buddhist, you simply have to practice meditation and believe in the Dharma (Buddha's teachings), and any other Buddhist lay person or monk would certainly recognize you as a Buddhist. So in that way it's free and open.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Wow, I am blown away by how much understanding and wisdom you guys are showing. Really deep, smart interpretations of ideas that a lot of people find confusing.The belief in reincarnation is more or less a holdover from the Hindu milieu out of which Buddhism grew. You don't have to believe in it at all. I find it a charming idea, but I don't have faith in it happening literally.What you say about Buddhism being allowing and free-flowing is what I love about it, but at the same time a lot of Americans (dumber Americans than you) hear that and think "oh, anything goes, whatever feels good I can justify through Buddhism because it doesn't have any rules." It doesn't have hard and fast rules, but that's because it's totally happening within you. [And I think that's why it is the way it is, not necessarily because of religious hierarchy.] What I'm talking about is karma. Karma just means response -- the way Buddhists often put it is, "Suffering follows evil deeds as the wheel of a cart follows the ox. Happiness follows good deeds as the wheel of a cart follows the ox." Karma is that simple and that automatic. There's very little you can do to alter it except to change your deeds. The more good you do, the more happiness follows and the happier you and those around you will be. Do bad deeds, and you will suffer as a result (for those who do believe in reincarnation, you may suffer with a lower rebirth).The college I went to had a motto: "In the final analysis, every student is responsible for his/her own education." What that meant to me was that if I wanted to sign up only for classes that met after 2 PM and arrange my schedule so that I had Fridays off and no big papers, that was fine. I would graduate dumber than a rock, but the school really didn't care. I was going to pay the price for my choices. If I took five classes a semester and chose the hardest professors and had 300 pages of writing due in one term (yep, that was me), then I would graduate smart, with a virtually unlimited future, and I would reap the rewards of my choices.So Buddhism seems very allowing because it's not the rest of us or society that will reap the consequences of your deeds, good or bad. It's you. It's up to you what it is you want to reap, and arrange your behavior accordingly.I want to stay away from how we are like or unlike Christianity, but I do have to say that this is a big reason for me to be Buddhist. I was sexually abused as a child, and Christianity tells me that my abuser can just ask forgiveness and get it without having to do anything else (like apologizing or admitting his crime) and he can go to the same heaven as I would, if I were a believer. A rapist can go to heaven, right alongside his victim. Where's the divine justice in that? I've never molested a child, most raped women have never turned around and raped others. How do we deserve nothing more than the people who did such harm? How do they deserve nothing less than those whose lives and souls they forever damaged? I've asked ministers this, and their response was all about the importance of forgiveness. They didn't seem to get it when I said Christianity struck me as the perfect religion for perpetrators, but not so good a one for victims. God essentially forgets the rape and returns the rapist to a state of innocence before the rape occurred. That's nice, but can he return the woman there, too? Can he return her to a time before the rape, before she stayed in a locked house after dark or flinched when men looked at her? Not that I've ever heard.You're exactly right that ridding yourself of desire and grasping (even grasping to those we love) is not cold at all, but all about fully loving them and appreciating them in the moment. Every moment is precious if you treat it as the only one you have, and what hurts is when we hold on to "you were different when we were dating," or "I don't want my mom to grow old." Those thoughts create suffering for us, because we can't turn back the clock or stop it entirely. People do change. Love them now, for who they are now. And then tomorrow, love them for who they are then.In fact, this, too, is why Buddhism is so allowing and free-flowing. If you love someone for who they are each moment, instead of comparing that moment to previous ones you liked better, then you just sort of automatically judge them less and appreciate their little quirks more, and when you treat the whole world that way, the whole idea of judging and resisting the things you don't like and clinging to the things you do like just sort of starts to fall away. You find that you can love a whole lot more than you ever thought you could.To Longshottwelves's questions (do we cease to be human by ceasing to grasp, does anyone achieve perfection, and do we have to follow the path to a T), I'll throw my two cents in as well. As Tim and Checky both said, by not grasping we become more expansive, more loving, more relaxed, and better than human -- we become more buddha-like! The Zen take on achieving perfection is to liken humans and buddhahood to a buried jewel. We all have the perfection of buddhahood inside -- every last one of us. The difference is whether or not we'll make the effort to clear away the dirt covering that jewel. If we never make the effort, the jewel will never be seen. If we make some effort, some glimmers may appear, but only if we really carefully sweep away all the dirt (bad habits, grasping, selfish motivations, etc.) will the jewel fully shine for everyone to see and fully enrich our lives. Lastly, Buddhism is very much a path of "do your best right now." Your best right now may not be very good -- maybe it's just passing up that second rock of crack. But if that's your best, then you get 'credit' for that. Maybe your best is to sit in meditation until you achieve full enlightenment like the Buddha himself. Whatever your best is in this moment, just do that. And keep doing that. Lists and paths aside, that's the whole thing.

[timwakefield 68]

Every moment is precious if you treat it as the only one you have, and what hurts is when we hold on to "you were different when we were dating," or "I don't want my mom to grow old."

The last time I saw my Tibetan monk friend Lama Lobsang, he was working in a bakery in Cambridge. It was the first time I'd seen him not in his robes (he was wearing jeans and a shirt and an apron), and had recently taken this job after being granted political asylum in the U.S. (he fled Tibet as a child and lived in India most of his life). So I went to visit him with my mom, who is about 60. It was a little chilly out, and anyways when we got there he gave us his usual big hug, and he always holds both of your hands firmly and stares right into your eyes. So my mom has notoriously cold hands, and he started laughing about how cold her hands were. His English isn't so great (when he led meditation groups and discussions he used a translator), but basically he starts saying about how that is how things work, my mom was young once and now she is getting old and her hands are cold, and here I am her son and eventually I will have kids and then I will get old and die. All the while he has a huge smile on his face and he's laughing with us and everything. Anyways, I think that's a good illustration of how Buddhists think about death and loss.And on another subject (regarding loving all creatures) - Buddhists take very seriously the teaching that 'all creatures tremble before death,' and believe that when you realize the meaning of this you cannot think to do harm to another creature.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

And on another subject (regarding loving all creatures) - Buddhists take very seriously the teaching that 'all creatures tremble before death,' and believe that when you realize the meaning of this you cannot think to do harm to another creature.

You're absolutely right. To apply this just to food (although it applies to all behavior), I'm not completely a vegetarian. I eat fish and seafood, but no land animals. That's because there is no doubt that cows and pigs feel fear in slaughterhouses. They suffer when they die, and I'm not comfortable being the cause of that suffering. You're also right, of course, that Tibet is a hugely meat-eating country, because the climate is so harsh that vegetables are nearly impossible to grow. But they eat meat both with the desire to cause as little suffering as possible to the animal, and with an understanding that even though meat is their basic diet, there is still a karmic charge that they accrue because of it. They don't just give themselves an entirely free pass. They understand that ideally, not eating meat is better, but they don't live in an ideal world. Here in America, we pretty much do live in an ideal world, in terms of food supply. I can choose any form of food, so ideally, I should choose vegetarian. I know there's a karmic price for eating seafood, but I'm more comfortable that shrimp don't feel fear or pain on being swept up in a net.

[timwakefield 68]

But they eat meat ... with an understanding that even though meat is their basic diet, there is still a karmic charge that they accrue because of it.

That's interesting, I didn't know that.And as far as loving everybody (even your enemies), here's another short story about Lama Lobsang: I was over at his house one time (he was living with my mom's best friend, who basically took him in and provided for him until he was granted asylum), and we were looking at a book about Tibet. It was pretty cool seeing all these pictures of Tibetan lamas and monasteries and he knew a good number of the people, and was talking about the times he'd met the Dalai Lama and things. Anyways we got to a picture of the Chinese occupying Tibet, and he got a very serious expression on his face and said "Chinese very very bad.......hahahhaha" and then started laughing, not because he was kidding but just because the world is funny I guess. Anyways there was a banner with some Chinese characters on it, and Lobsang starts looking really closely at them, and slowly starts reading, "Chang.....Sho.....Ching........hahahhaha, no I not speak Chinese!" and starts laughing. These are the people who invaded his land, destroyed his temples, and killed and displaced his people, and he treats them with laughter. Pretty amazing I think.