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Quiz Question #14


  

234 members have voted

  1. 1. Pick a Flop

    • Kd 7h 3s
      136
    • 7d 7s 8d
      98


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You are playing in a $10-$20 blind no limit hold'em game online at FCP. One player limps in for $20 and you make it $80 with Q :D Q :club: and two players call behind you, as does the big blind and the initial limper. Now, which flop is better for the Q :D Q :D in the long run?

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LOL...I really like these quiz questions. Guess I'm one of the first readers because DN posts around this time and it is approx. dinner time where I'm currently at. I voted 778 flop...don't have too much analysis for it but from experience I think this flop should be better and also more profitable in the long run...DN might tell me something I don't know though...

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It depends on the types of players that called your raise with and hand range you have identified with them according to position/stack size/your image at the time. I'm not good with math so I don't have a clue as to understand which flop would theoretically be better for our hand. With the number of players that our involved in the hand I would rather have the K 3 7 board as opposed to the 7 7 8 one, no real reason why but with the generic information you have given that's my choosing. I suck at these quiz questions.

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I'll guess 778 is worse, because you won't win much from any worse hand than yours, such as A8 or JJ, and you'll lose something to somebody with a 7. With the other flop, you should be able to determine if an opponent has a K with a lead out bet, and may even force him to fold a K with weak kicker if he puts you on AK. The callers probably have AQ, AJ, (maybe AK), or some mid pocket pair.However, you can make the case the 778 flop is better because you will probably be cautious after your first bet with this flop, whereas the other flop you could get think your Qs are good if everyone folds but one person, and the put a second bet out on the turn. The one caller may be slowplaying a set, and you lose an extra bet or more. If there is one caller after you bet on the 778 flop, I'd think most people would be checking fearful of the 7. Then, they'd either check it down, or fold to a bet. So in the longgggrun, maybe 778 is better. Plus, you could hit your Q, and get all the money from someone with a 7, or 78. Just throwing out a bunch of possibilities pretty much. You can tell me the correct answer, I guess I'll say 778 is less dangerous longterm

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The first flop is better.Your opponents will put you on a hand such as a big pair or AK. Even if they made a mistake and are in this hand with something like KJ, they won't like it when you bet. GIven that no one reraised you (and the limper didn't limp-reraise), it's unlikely anyone has AA or KK. With no draws, it's unlikely that someone can semibluff-raise you off the best hand in a multiway pot if you bet the flop.The 877 is problematic. Two diamonds, 9T, TJ (maybe with one diamond), and pocket pairs are all hands that can semibluff raise you off the best. You don't have a diamond for a backdoor flush draw to fall back on (and it makes it more likely that someone could have two diamonds, since you are not blocking the possibility of someone holding big suited connectors). It's fairly hard to hold on to an overpair with that flop, and I haven't even mentioned yet the non-negligible possibility that you got outflopped.One last thing here is position. On a non-threatening board, it's easier to have the initiative. The big blind and the limper are likely to check the flop on this board, given the action. On a threatening board which can hit a lot of speculative hands in a multiway pot against players who are playing like they have speculative hands, it's much more comfortable to act with position. Here, you have a decent sized pot, where people would consider making plays and you have the potential to be sandwiched between a late position call or raise and a semibluff checkraise in front of you when you might have the best hand on the flop. You can still be stuck in the middle on the first flop, but at least you know that the action means you are beat. You would have less fear of a flop like J :D 2 :D 2 :club:

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You're likely not facing a king in anyone's hand...you could definitely be facing hands like 56, 56, 78, 89, 9T or diaomond draws.HOWEVER....Though you win more often with the King flop, I think you win more money with the 778 flop, where you can earn dollars from those chasing the flush or straight draws, which DON'T get there as often as they do..

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I don't think it is a matter of which flop you will win on more often, but rather I think it is which flop will you be able to win more/lose less money/chips on, which is the "long run" part of the question. Hence my answer! :club:

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You're likely not facing a king in anyone's hand...you could definitely be facing hands like 56, 56, 78, 89, 9T or diaomond draws.HOWEVER....Though you win more often with the King flop, I think you win more money with the 778 flop, where you can earn dollars from those chasing the flush or straight draws, which DON'T get there as often as they do..
You're not likely to face a king in anyone's hand????
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You'll lose more when you're beat and win less when you're ahead when it comes 877, but when it comes k73 you'll lose less when your behind and win more when you're ahead.-Andrew
I'm not sure you win too much with the K73 flop - you do lose little when you're behind, but I can't see you extracting too much money when you're ahead.
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You're not likely to face a king in anyone's hand????
Yup - what is limping in front of you?What is calling a 4x BB raise behind you?Sure...perhaps KQ, or, a stretch, KJ, is in there...but you are more likely facing mid-suited connectors, middle pairs, or a range of aces.In a 10-20 NL ring game, KQ and KJ are trouble hands that are easily dominated by the hand that raised, and a lot of quality players won't call with them...now, if someone limped/called with AK, so be it.Of all the possible hands your 3 opponents are holding, a "king" hand is less likely....probably less than 10% of the time...even against three opponents.Having said that, if someone raises your bet I think you have to get away from the hand.
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7d7s8d is the best....a K flop with 4 other players gives you 2 outs to beat KK.I think it is safe to assume that at least one of the other 4 players called the raise with at least 1 of them (probably the BB) holding a K in their hand. I need 1 of 2 remaining Q's to win and most likely would fold the hand if someone led out with a bet of at least 1/2 the pot.PS. After I posted this I went to Cardplayer.com's poker odds calculator and ran this. Interesting result!

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You'll lose more when you're beat and win less when you're ahead when it comes 877, but when it comes k73 you'll lose less when your behind and win more when you're ahead.
What you really want to say is that you are less likely to fold the best hand on the first flop and more likely to call with the second best hand on the second flop.Also, I wanted to add, that clearly the second flop actually occurred. Someone overplayed QQ and called all-in when Daniel Negreanu pushed holding T7 sooooted.
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If it were heads up it might be different, but against 4 players 778 with a 2 flush is a nightmare. You are dodging all diamonds and any card beside a Q, 2 or 3 is dangerous. Very hard to ever know where you are at.With K73r though, any action and you are likely beat.Information is money in poker, so any hand that is easier to read must be more profitable.K73 for me

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The number of players in without a reraise says drawing hands, suited connectors, small pairs, etc, The 778 flop is the flop you want when you are just calling a raise, hoping to connect.The K with you in late position gives you a better opportunity to represent, and get away if reraised.I have gotten 75% of these quizzes wrong. Curse Phil Helmuth and his book which was the first book I ever read. I can't unlearn his 'skills'

What you really want to say is that you are less likely to fold the best hand on the first flop and more likely to call with the second best hand on the second flop.Also, I wanted to add, that clearly the second flop actually occurred. Someone overplayed QQ and called all-in when Daniel Negreanu pushed holding T7 sooooted.
You say that like 10 7 suited isn't a monster...
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7d7s8d is the best....a K flop with 4 other players gives you 2 outs to beat KK.I think it is safe to assume that at least one of the other 4 players called the raise with at least 1 of them (probably the BB) holding a K in their hand. I need 1 of 2 remaining Q's to win and most likely would fold the hand if someone led out with a bet of at least 1/2 the pot.PS. After I posted this I went to Cardplayer.com's poker odds calculator and ran this. Interesting result!
How can you use cardplayer odds calculator without knowing your opponents cards? Is there another calculator out there that you can do this?owise1
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How can you use cardplayer odds calculator without knowing your opponents cards? Is there another calculator out there that you can do this?owise1
I just plugged in pocket aces, kings or queens. Obviously there may be someone who calls with any pair. Good thought....I may go back and check any pocket pair and other top cards AK, AQ, and some sooted connectors.I didn't do anyting scientific, just played around with it.
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flop with pair of sevens is better for us.We can be pretty sure noone has KK nor AA. We will loose $ if they do.On the 77 flop we will get paid off by lots of pocket pairs. The chances of someone having a 7 are lower than someone having a K. There are fewer sevens for opponents to have and oponents are less likely to play a hand with a seven in it.Also we will have +EV from drawing hands.Opalinskiopalpa@gmail.comhttp://www.geocities.com/opalpaweb/

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Really, with the pocket Queens, the first flop is much better. With all these callers, especially one's that have limped in then called a hefty raise in a multiway pot often indicate drawing hands. This means that the flop of 7 :D 7 :club: 8 :D is quite dangerous due to the fact that the chances of someone having a 7 are increased. The coordinated nature of the flop is dangerous and devalues your hand greatly. There are few safe cards in the deck even if you are in the lead. If you are in the lead with this many players against you, any heart, 6, 9, 8 pretty much cripples you. An ace or king aren't good cards either. So basically, a little less than half the remaining cards in the deck can be potentially terrible cards, and you are giving away implied odds to other players by calling.Whereas with the first flop, with the coordinated nature of the board there are less dangerous cards out against you. With this flop, all you fear is the unlikely set, or a player with the king. If there is a lot of betting and raising in front of you, you can safely lay this down.

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i voted for K73 cause if your opponent bets strong hes either got a K or a setif he plays it strong on the 778 flop he could have trips, a flush draw, a str8 draw, and over pair less than your QQ so it hard to determine if your beat r not

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The K-High flop is definitely better because it is safer. Also, being that it is counter-intuitive its the obvious choice being that Daniel even made a quiz question out of it. If you look at these question in context the "right" answer is pretty easy to gleen without even thinking about, just like question 13 was a counter-example to question 12.In any case, with a pair like QQ in a deep stack game with multiple opponents you're looking to either take it down on the flop with a bet or be able to get away from the hand confidently, you're NOT looking to play a big pot if you miss your set, even with an overpair and especially on a paired/connected board. If you make a nice sized continuation bet on the drawless K-high flop people will have to respect your bet after your preflop raise. They are probably putting you on some high cards or a big pair to begin with. Therefore, people aren't going to be looking to play back at you with nothing, especially if they suspect, or at least have a reason to fear, that you may have flopped a very strong hand.Conversely, on the paired draw-rich flop, not only are players going to suspect that you whiffed with a hand like AK or some other big unpaired hand, they are also much more likely to have flopped a big hand or a big draw which will allow them to make big raises that could be value bets or semibluffs and will put us on the defensive leaving us lost and suffering tremendously from reverse implied odds. We are in a spot to either be outplayed and moved off the best hand or to be stubborn and possibly pay off a monster.To sum it up, you are crippled by reverse implied odds on the paired flop because you have no way of knowing where you are in the hand. With the K-high flop you should find out exactly where you stand because it is not a flop where (rational) people should be looking to take shots at you. K-high flop you will most likely either win a small/medium pot or lose a small pot, usually you'll win. Paired/connected flop you will often either win a small pot, lose a BIG one, or make an uncomfortable fold of what could easily be the best hand at the moment. With an unimproved big pair in multi-way pots you don't want a lot of action, especially from decent players.

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Of course if this was an FCP tournament then I would be mostly afraid of the K73 flop because so many people actually think the Krablar is a good drawing hand.

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