mtt strategy discussion

[therrinn 0]

Also I would like to know everyones thoughts on showing hands... I never show any hand bluff or not... And wanted to know if it is wise to show a good bluff everyonce in a while to encourage action later in the tournament?

The only times I'll ever show is if my blind play seems to be establishing a pattern behaviour that I don't want it to. In general, poker is a game of partial information - keep as much info from your opposition as possible.

[belatropic 0]

Also I would like to know everyones thoughts on showing hands... I never show any hand bluff or not... And wanted to know if it is wise to show a good bluff everyonce in a while to encourage action later in the tournament?

The only times I'll ever show is if my blind play seems to be establishing a pattern behaviour that I don't want it to. In general, poker is a game of partial information - keep as much info from your opposition as possible.

Anytime you win before the river (whether bluffing or the nutz), keep that information to yourself. You should be able to build your table image by the hands you show down. Uncheck that "Muck losing/uncalled hands at showdown" & use it to your advantage.

[Vick12 0]

The only times I'll ever show is if my blind play seems to be establishing a pattern behaviour that I don't want it to. In general, poker is a game of partial information - keep as much info from your opposition as possible.Anytime you win before the river (whether bluffing or the nutz), keep that information to yourself. You should be able to build your table image by the hands you show down. Uncheck that "Muck losing/uncalled hands at showdown" & use it to your advantage.

Bumpstickity Bumpstickity Bump Bump...Mods...There is so much good stuff in here this should be stickied at the top of this forum.Just my 2 cents.BTW...I like some of the new features...like the one that says PMJackson is lurking in the thread!PM..is that you in your avatar now?

[doublemeup 0]

Bump

[timwakefield 68]

Dealing with the one at the table who goes on a ridiculous run early in the tournament..How do I deal with that person that seems to be in everyhand and hit every flop and builds a massive chip lead early in the tournament? What are the ways to deal with that? Do I stay out of their way and hope to get moved to another table? Or do I go after them and try to calm them down? It just seems that at the beginning of every tourney someone will build up a huge lead (usually by playing poorly) and end up calling every bet to the river to try and get everyones chips... Too many times have I had an overpair or hit a set and had that person call with a flush draw..etc... Thoughts?Also I would like to know everyones thoughts on showing hands... I never show any hand bluff or not... And wanted to know if it is wise to show a good bluff everyonce in a while to encourage action later in the tournament?

If I am being extremely aggressive I will show off a good hand now and then to keep everybody scared to play back at me.

[doublemeup 0]

Ok first off lemme just say that the discussion in here is so great to see. This thread should be stickied. Now I know most of you probably don't respect my opinon which is understandable but I play a lot of MTT's and I do well. Everything that was said here I follow. You guys have done a great job telling the secrets to good results in MTT's. I think that stealing pots is very very important. I cashed in a tournament yesterday and the best hand I picked up in 2 and a half hours was 77. I had AK once and barely anything else. How did I cash you say? Well I just stole every pot when I had the opportunity. I wasn't being a maniac, I was just picking up blinds often and picking up an incredible amount of dead money.One play that wasn't mentioned here is one that I use often and I think its smart. When its late in a tournament and your in the bb with say 83o and the sb limps. You COULD just check and try and catch a flop but why not raise it up to say 3.5X the bb and pick up some dead money? Its not that good of a play if there aren't antes involved but you get the idea. My favorite part of poker is final tables without question and I've made a lot of them. I think its ultra important when you get there to be the chip leader or in the top 3 in chips. When you are, you can bully the table and if you use your chips wisely, you'll usually finish fairly high. You guys pretty much covered everything else. Comments?

[belatropic 0]

Yea, you have to be able to make that BB/SB move as well as steal pots to make the final table. Lessinger's Book of Bluffs offers many useful tips on this.I did have to laugh at your last line of your post though. If you arrive at the final table in the top 3 in chips you'll usually finish fairly high.Ya think.

I think its ultra important when you get there to be the chip leader or in the top 3 in chips. When you are, you can bully the table and if you use your chips wisely, you'll usually finish fairly high.

Just funnin

[doublemeup 0]

Hahaha...yeah one of those "Thank You Captain Obvious!"

[mk 11]

Dealing with the one at the table who goes on a ridiculous run early in the tournament..How do I deal with that person that seems to be in everyhand and hit every flop and builds a massive chip lead early in the tournament? What are the ways to deal with that? Do I stay out of their way and hope to get moved to another table? Or do I go after them and try to calm them down? It just seems that at the beginning of every tourney someone will build up a huge lead (usually by playing poorly) and end up calling every bet to the river to try and get everyones chips... Too many times have I had an overpair or hit a set and had that person call with a flush draw..etc... Thoughts?

This depends completely on whether the player in question here knows what they're doing or not. If you play in some of the bigger tourneys, you'll run into LAGs who are really strong players. If this is the case, I try to avoid them as much as possible. An example: in a recent Stars $215, I started with Fischman at my table and he was lagging it up early, raising a ton of pots, and playing super-aggressively whenever he was involved. I played maybe one pot with him the entire first hour. But when I do play a hand against this type of player, I follow Harrington's advice and make a BIG preflop raise or re-raise because they will likely not want to commit too many chips preflop.On the other hand, if the player is a total luckbox and clearly has no idea what they're doing, I try to find any reason to play a pot with them. A specific strategy adjustment that I will make when playing aginst this type of player is to, again, increase the size of my pre-flop raises, because a lot of these players will call ANY raise preflop (especially if they've accumulated some chips), and in addition to hopefully isolating them, you get more money in the pot as a substantial favorite. Bizzle and I encountered just such a player in a Stars tourney not too long ago and we talked a little strategy. He could probably add more.

[Bizzle 0]

This depends completely on whether the player in question here knows what they're doing or not. If you play in some of the bigger tourneys, you'll run into LAGs who are really strong players. If this is the case, I try to avoid them as much as possible. An example: in a recent Stars $215, I started with Fischman at my table and he was lagging it up early, raising a ton of pots, and playing super-aggressively whenever he was involved. I played maybe one pot with him the entire first hour. But when I do play a hand against this type of player, I follow Harrington's advice and make a BIG preflop raise or re-raise because they will likely not want to commit too many chips preflop.On the other hand, if the player is a total luckbox and clearly has no idea what they're doing, I try to find any reason to play a pot with them. A specific strategy adjustment that I will make when playing aginst this type of player is to, again, increase the size of my pre-flop raises, because a lot of these players will call ANY raise preflop (especially if they've accumulated some chips), and in addition to hopefully isolating them, you get more money in the pot as a substantial favorite. Bizzle and I encountered just such a player in a Stars tourney not too long ago and we talked a little strategy. He could probably add more.

Woah, I do a search for my name within posts and this is what turns up. :)I do remember the player mk is referring to (and he was truly awful). He called early all ins preflop (like blinds 25-50, 1500-2000 going in preflop) with A6 A3 K9 and J7. With a player like this, three rules apply.1) High unpaired cards gain in value. Hands like A10, AJ, AQ, AK, and even KQ become hands I am willing to put in large raises or reraises with against this player, due to the odds that he will call my bet with a ridiculous dominiated hand. For example, if I hold A10 in the SB and there is an EP raise to 400, most of the time I will just lay it down because I don't want to play an easily dominated hand OOP against the raiser. Since I know he has a crapload of chips and his calling range is huge, I would strongly consider firing off my full 3k if I think it is likely he will call off with some ridiculousness.2) Medium pairs lose value. When your opponent will call any bet with KJo, 10-10 becomes a hand that you want to take flops with. Remember, the flop will miss them 2/3 of the time, so take advantage of that fact. Anything from 77 to JJ I will try to see the flop for a single raise if possible, and then fire out a very very healthy bet on the flop for which I hope to get the horrible 2 overcard call with.3) Patience and speed rule the day. Play very patiently-versus the donk mk was referring to, I waited a full 3 rounds to play a hand versus him at the 100-200 level. We had played several big pots prior to this, and I had around 5600. He raises in late position to 600 and I jammed out of the SB with KK. He makes the awesome call with KQo and I get a crapload of chips. Do not be afraid to make overbets at the pot versus this player, as you will get paid off more often than you think. However, if you get all of your money in with 77 versus their K9 and they hit...well, you got what you asked for.

[Loismustdie 0]

How about turning the TV off & actually paying attention Early in the tournament when accumulating chips makes life so much easier in the later rounds. After 30 minutes you should get a good read on the other players.

No- that's a terrible idea. With the average tournement starting stack at 1500 my goal in the first hour is to wait for big hands and double up or more- it's pretty much an issue of automatic poker, and if I happen to get lucky enough to get a decent stack then I will focus and take the time to actually play. Unless there is a major player at my table in the first hour I am not really all that worried about watching people because chances are they will be gone soon anyway. I look at MTT's like this- If I don't build a good sized stack in the first hour I am pretty much done, except in the rare situation when I go on a huge rush of cards. If I am a decent sized stack, hour 2 is about getting into the top 40 or so(based on a field of 500), hour 3 is about geting into the top ten and then I am going to use my stack to start taking more chances with marginal hands- it is not uncommon to see me drop from 1st to 20th and then back again continually, and the reason being is I know people are watching and I need them to know that I am capable of anything, which I need for the final table. Often as a big stack mathematically you can take chances alot more than people think because you can get it all back next hand with a basic preflop steal- It's amazing how many times I will call off some chips with some B.S. and then everybody folds to my raise the next hand- people get very afraid to tangle. I also find that when I hit the goals that I set within the tournament even when I go bust, I feel like I played well and it doesn't matter. It's funny, because I have won alot of tournaments, and have never read any books of any use- only book that I read so far was one of Helmuths ABC books, and really those are overall a joke. So, when you guys say certain things like reraising a continuation bet I don't really know those terms, but then I look at the situation and realize I do that all of the time,I just don't know what it is called. BTW, anybody willing to discuss some SNG strategy over the phone PM me and we can talk- I need input from people and some new ways to look at SNG style 10 mans so I can win this Protoge thing, and I will pay homage to anyone who helps me out, some how, I promise.

Dealing with the one at the table who goes on a ridiculous run early in the tournament..How do I deal with that person that seems to be in everyhand and hit every flop and builds a massive chip lead early in the tournament? What are the ways to deal with that? Do I stay out of their way and hope to get moved to another table? Or do I go after them and try to calm them down? It just seems that at the beginning of every tourney someone will build up a huge lead (usually by playing poorly) and end up calling every bet to the river to try and get everyones chips... Too many times have I had an overpair or hit a set and had that person call with a flush draw..etc... Thoughts?Also I would like to know everyones thoughts on showing hands... I never show any hand bluff or not... And wanted to know if it is wise to show a good bluff everyonce in a while to encourage action later in the tournament?

I love that guy- he will double me up when the time is right and why would you have a problem with him drawing out on you? That happens, and as long as you are getting your chips in as a favorite you can't ask for much more than that. I never show unless I have too. That's just my rule. I am going to show enough hands anyway just because my style is so confrontational that it's not neccesary.

[Drwnded 0]

Since this thread may get stickied, I was asked to move this info from a recent thread over here. Here's the original post plus some responses (sorry, long):Drwnded wrote:The longer HOH v1 and 2 are out, the more people I see in tournies employing at least some of the tactics described, especially probe and continuation bets. Lately, I'm trying to identify the players who are seemingly using these types of bets at my table early so I can resteal from them after the flop in the following way:Let's say I'm heads-up postflop with a player who raised preflop and has shown a tendency to make continuation/probe bets. If the flop is reasonably benign-looking and the villian bets out 1/2 or less of the pot, I find I can fold them and steal the pot with any two cards a high percentage of the time by raising them a standard amount (about 3X their flop bet) with any two cards. You have to pick your spots to try this obviously, but mathematically I think it's a +EV play. Since you're raising 3X their flop bet, you're raising the amount in the pot since their bet was roughly 1/2 the pot (e.g. - 500 in the pot, they bet 250, you raise to 750, which is the amount in the pot). This should mean that you only have to win 50% or more of these pots for the play to show a +EV. Assuming that if the villian doesn't connect with the flop he will fold to your raise, and since any two unpaired cards will connect with the flop only about 1/3 of the time (and make top pair even less than that), theoretically you should win more than 50% (roughly 66%) of these pots.What about when the villian holds a pocket overpair? I agree this could be trouble occaisonally, but I find that most players will bet more than half the pot in order to protect their hand when they make top pair or an overpair unless the flop is really very nonthreatening. Thus, if they bet more than 1/2 the pot I wouldn't try this play.Furthermore, position doesn't seem to affect this play adversely, since it should be just as potent whether you're making the raise behind the player's bet, or making it as a steal check-raise.What do you guys think? Does this make sense?amarillotq wrote:i agree.just a couple more thoughts.i'd want a fairly deep stack (an M of 15-20 minimum) to make this move with no hand and no draw.when i am in position, sometimes i like to just flat call. if the pre-flop raiser did miss the flop and you call his continuation bet he will usually check the turn UI allowing you to scoop it fairly easily. i like this play a little better because you commit less chips if he does actually have something.mk wrote:Yes, I have uttered similar sentiments here before. Basically whenever I see people firing out continuation bets like a HOH-Robot, it makes me cringe. And yes, both the c/r and the stop-n-go are valauable weapons against this type of player.One other thing to consider is the competition. Making 'plays' at players in $10 MTTs isn't a good idea. They're often gonna jam it even if they whiff with AQ. If you try to move them off a weak hand when you're weak too, you'll find yourself quickly on the rail. You just want to value bet against these players. But against the "solid" (read: bad) HOH-bot, you can make these plays with confidence, because they will fold when they miss and get c/r-ed, or they will shut down when you call their flop continuation bet.copernicus wrote:In the original post you go to some lengths to justify raising 3x the preflop raise since that winds up being the current pot amount...it would be easier just to say "raise the pot". In the Caesars tourney there was a an apparently very wealth biz man and friend of Ron Rose on my right who was addicted to cb's. After coming over the top on him twice with good hands, I realized I didnt need such a good hand and stole from him 4 more times before he came back at me and I had to fold.Definitely +EV against the right players. Good thoughts..cut and paste it into the long strategy thread since that seems to be gaining life as the strategy thread.

[Drwnded 0]

Not only to bump this thread, but hopefully to add a little something:Last night while playing in an MTT, another bit of strategy that I employ sometimes occurred to me.When I flop a strong made hand (example: top two-pair or a set) against one opponent who is relatively short-stacked, obviously my main consideration is how I can get them to put all their chips in the middle. I think in these situations it's important to size your bet in terms of a percentage of your opponents stack, rather than as a percentage of the pot. I find it optimal to bet an amount that leaves your opponent thinking he has some fold equity if he pushes. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the villian's remaining stack seems to be about right. That way you can induce a relatively solid player to believe that he has some chance of moving you off the hand if he pushes with something marginal (but that may have a chance to improve if called) like middle pair or a flush draw, when in fact you are inducing him to semibluff as a huge underdog/drawing dead.In contrast, if you bet a more standard amount, say 1/2-pot, which happens to be around 1/2 or more of the villian's stack, he likely folds since he knows he has no fold equity in that situation and you don't get paid off.Thoughts?

[GrinderMJ 0]

Not only to bump this thread, but hopefully to add a little something:Last night while playing in an MTT, another bit of strategy that I employ sometimes occurred to me.When I flop a strong made hand (example: top two-pair or a set) against one opponent who is relatively short-stacked, obviously my main consideration is how I can get them to put all their chips in the middle. I think in these situations it's important to size your bet in terms of a percentage of your opponents stack, rather than as a percentage of the pot. I find it optimal to bet an amount that leaves your opponent thinking he has some fold equity if he pushes. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the villian's remaining stack seems to be about right. That way you can induce a relatively solid player to believe that he has some chance of moving you off the hand if he pushes with something marginal (but that may have a chance to improve if called) like middle pair or a flush draw, when in fact you are inducing him to semibluff as a huge underdog/drawing dead.In contrast, if you bet a more standard amount, say 1/2-pot, which happens to be around 1/2 or more of the villian's stack, he likely folds since he knows he has no fold equity in that situation and you don't get paid off.Thoughts?

I like that idea, actually. I will try that next time as it is obviously logical.

[astros11ss 0]

I like that idea, actually. I will try that next time as it is obviously logical.

i agree, i'm gonna try it out over the next few weeks. also, this thread needs to be reborn, it has soooo much more potential.

[gobears 0]

Worthy of a bump

[mk 11]

This should probably be stickied. The $22 180 thread should be as well.