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Sad Saga Of A Small Town


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I'm pretty sure you're not an atheist (at least I'm inferring that from your post, please correct me if I'm wrong), and if that's the case you really have very little idea what it feels like to experience something like this. If you are an atheist, your views certainly don't represent how most of us feel. Your comparison between what happens at a public institution and a friend's dinner party is ludicrous. Part of what is so infuriating about hearing a public institution endorse particular religious beliefs comes from the fact that an important principle of government is being violated. Its one thing to be ostracized by peers at a dinner party, but to have your own government which is supposed to represent you do that is absolutely distressing. What? There is no gray area. It's a public school. They can't have prayer at a school function. The supreme court has ruled on it over and over again, even if it is student-led. Its a closed case.
Don't they open congress with prayer? What about the President? Doesn't he attend like 100's of event per year where they pray? I'm not sure this is a very big deal. As a Christian (a real one) I've dealt with TONS of crap over my lifetime. People berating me AT school, in front of teachers, etc. Everyone in a minority of anything has to put up with stuff like that. Why are we always changing the rules and adjusting things for the smallest/loudest group? Utilitarianism is a better plan.BTW, as stated earlier, the legal case is closed in my mind. The school is in the wrong here.
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Don't the open congress with prayer? What about the President? Doesn't he attend like 100's of event per year where they pray? I'm not sure this is a very big deal. As a Christian (a real one) I've dealt with TONS of crap over my lifetime. People berating me AT school, in front of teachers. Everyone in a minority of anything has to put up with stuff like that. Why are we always changing the rules and adjusting things for the smallest/loudest group? Utilitarianism is a better plan.
The president as a citizen can pray whenever he wants, that is not an issue. Congress opening with a prayer is an issue. We are not changing the rules and adjusting anything for any small/loud group -- this is a principle written into the constitution and upheld by the supreme court over the course of 400 years.
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The president as a citizen can pray whenever he wants, that is not an issue. Congress opening with a prayer is an issue. We are not changing the rules and adjusting anything for any small/loud group -- this is a principle written into the constitution and upheld by the supreme court over the course of 400 years.
WOW. The constitution is old.
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See, this is where it gets tricky. The government makes everyone pay for school. This leaves many people in the position of being forced to attend secular public schools rather than religious schools, due to financial limitations. The practical result of that is that the government is actually preventing people from practicing religion the way they'd prefer -- by indoctrinating their kids. Separation of church and state has to work both ways or it means nothing. The govt should neither promote nor prevent religious activity.So what's the answer? There are two ways to go with this. One, get the government out of education completely, because otherwise you get govt officials deciding who gets to be religious when.The other choice is to a "tolerant separation" philosophy, where you are free to express your beliefs in a reasonable, non-aggressive, non-forced way. This way leads to endless arguments about how much is too much and when is it appropriate.As ugly as both of these are, telling people "if you are too poor after we taxed you for schools to afford to send your kids to private school then you can't practice religion the way you want" just seems to be... well, really un-American.
Maybe the real solution to this problem is to only tax people who use the schools. Then if people want to use that same money for private religious education or home-schooling they can do that. The public school needs to take the following position: "as a public institution we remain neutral with respect to religion". Students are free to express their religious beliefs. The school is not free to endorse those religious beliefs by incorporating them into school functions.
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Maybe the real solution to this problem is to only tax people who use the schools. Then if people want to use that same money for private religious education or home-schooling they can do that. The public school needs to take the following position: "as a public institution we remain neutral with respect to religion". Students are free to express their religious beliefs. The school is not free to endorse those religious beliefs by incorporating them into school functions.
I would be fine with this, but what if the valedictorian wanted to express their views by praying during or in lieu of their speech? That wouldn't be endorsed by the school.
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I would be fine with this, but what if the valedictorian wanted to express their views by praying during or in lieu of their speech? That wouldn't be endorsed by the school.
I think the ruling in the Santa Fe SD v Doe case gives a good indication of what the criteria are for these situations. The SC said in that case, about pre-football game prayers led by a student:that these pre-game prayers delivered "on school property, at school-sponsored events, over the school's public address system, by a speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of school faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer" are not private, but public speech. "Regardless of the listener's support for, or objection to, the message, an objective Santa Fe High School student will unquestionably perceive the inevitable pregame prayer as stamped with her school's seal of approval."So the circumstances matter. If the student really just spontaneously added a prayer to his own speech without endorsement from the school, that is probably ok.
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Yeah, I knew I was pushing it with that comparison. Still, my school said the Pledge of Allegiance, and I wasn't traumatized by the last two words. People around me pray all the time, and I think good for them, whatever they need to get through the day.
I think the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in its entirety is creepy and un-American. I stopped doing it in junior high.
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They are providing fertile soil for the seeds of the next holy war.
If you go to church, you are promoting jihad? You have to know how silly that is. When pressed, most religious people know the difference between faith and knowledge. They just choose to shut it off for the social and emotional benefits. Blaming those people for jihad is like blaming heavy metal for school shootings -- the cause and effect are backward.
You're suggesting that we cultivate a society in which truth doesn't matter as long as it makes people temporarily happy. The consequences of that are so far-reaching its hard to even grasp. Basically we have a culture that does not know how to use reason. Why would they? Given the value placed on believing superstitions despite overwhelming evidence, how could we ever create a reasonable society?
I still suggest teaching reason and logic in school, and explaining why it is important. That doesn't mean people should not be allowed to carve out a niche in their life for the irrational. We all do it in some way or another, it's just that religion pushed people's buttons.
I also don't believe the canard that religion makes people happy. At least, there are plenty of less harmful alternatives available which could lead us all to a place of greater collective well-being. Do you really think that we are optimizing our well-being by cultivating religion, or are you just resigned to the idea that it will never change?
I think that many people are better off with religion, if only for the social aspect of it. In fact, I would say that is the typical case.We need to be careful to not judge the 99% by the 1%.
I'm on my phone. When I get to a keyboard I'm going to hammer the shit out of you hblask.Hammer the dog shit out of you.
Yeah, see, that doesn't phase me. I know all the arguments, and I just don't think Joe Suburbanite praying at school is a big deal. Should the school obey the law? Of course. Would I personally incur the wrath of a entire town to ensure they do? No. That's my only point, really. Other than that most of my interest here is theoretical.
Maybe the real solution to this problem is to only tax people who use the schools. Then if people want to use that same money for private religious education or home-schooling they can do that. The public school needs to take the following position: "as a public institution we remain neutral with respect to religion". Students are free to express their religious beliefs. The school is not free to endorse those religious beliefs by incorporating them into school functions.
Vouchers solves this, too, to a large degree, because then the percentage of people paying for public vs religious schools basically matches the number who would in the absence of public schools, but with the benefits of public ed. Some people are bothered that even a penny of their money goes to religious schools, but that's no different than making religious people pay for schools that forbid religion. Vouchers or backpack funding seems to balance the line, IMO.
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Some people are bothered that even a penny of their money goes to religious schools, but that's no different than making religious people pay for schools that forbid religion.
It's a lot different.Imagine applying this argument to any other government function. Imagine interstates with bible verses on the official road signs every half mile.Some people are bothered that even a penny of their money goes to religious interstates, but that's no different than making religious people pay for interstates that forbid religion.It's only because you suppose including religion in education is a normal thing to do that it doesn't alarm you when the state sponsors religion in this manner.
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If his goal was to be a martyr for a cause, then he got what he asked for and everyone wins. If his goal was to avoid a little discomfort for 30 seconds in a graduation ceremony, he made a serious error in judgement.Different strokes, I guess. I can find a lot better situations than this to become a martyr.
I agree with...this...
I'm on my phone. When I get to a keyboard I'm going to hammer the shit out of you hblask.Hammer the dog shit out of you.
*backs away from the keyboard*
Bones linked to a story that didn't really go into any detail about a woman who "took a box cutter" to her children's throats and then sliced her own throat, so they wouldn't have to go through the 5/21 apocalypse. Which doesn't make any sense even if she totally believed everything he was saying, but whatever. Anyway, can't this guy be arrested for something? Like yelling "fire" in a crowded auditorium?I think it's interesting that people say they feel stress at hearing someone pray. I'm not sure I understand where that comes from.
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Okay, what started it was a classroom conversation over Jessica Ahlquist. She is a sophmore that has been going this legal fight which you might have seen in the past and is now writing a blog.http://jessicaahlquist.com/2011/05/a-quick-history/She basically made this face as the Christians preached at her.securedownload-1.jpgDamon was inspired by her and some teachers treated him rather unfairly for taking her side and then some kids at school did as well but nothing he couldn't handle. He wrote the letter to the principal in private, expecting her to keep it that way. They could have simply removed the prayer from the program and not said a word-simply followed the law and avoided any confrontation as well. They had a duty and obvious expectation to prevent bullying (also required by law) but they didn't. The teacher (Quinn) publicly denounced him which set the rest in motion. The comments that he should have kept his mouth shut is beyond ridiculous. I suppose people said the same thing about Rosa Parks.

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I think it's interesting that people say they feel stress at hearing someone pray. I'm not sure I understand where that comes from.
So you wouldn't be uncomfortable if you went to a town hall meeting and suddenly everyone in the room started praying to Allah? Even a little awkward?
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So you wouldn't be uncomfortable if you went to a town hall meeting and suddenly everyone in the room started praying to Allah? Even a little awkward?
Well, I feel awkward around people in general, so yeah. My feeling of awkwardness would come from wondering if I'm expected to join in. Do people feel that way at a graduation ceremony when somebody up front says a prayer? Is the entire class reciting a prayer together or was it just the girl at the podium? I think I tuned out my entire graduation ceremony, so it's hard for me to imagine stress from anything that took place up there. My stress came from hoping I wouldn't trip when I got my diploma.
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Some of what isn't said. After the article hit the paper a bunch of people started calling his parents and complaining. they had the preacher and his entourage come to the house and try to convert him. When he basically ignored them when he realized that no rational conversation was going to happen his parents took his phone and computer, money, etc. People trashed their yard and he received numerous death threats. Kids in town were organizing groups to find a way to kick his ass. All this out of love for Jesus. All this despite the fact that these loons don't read their own bible because if they did they would see quickly in the New Testament that Matthew 6:6 calls out those that feel the need to publicly pray as a sin.These people don't give a rats ass about what the bible says, morality, laws or common decency. Those used their faith as a sword instead of armour. They used it to attack. A moment of silence is not enough to pray to their sky fairy, it was more important that they use it to form a witch hunt.And lol @hblask for saying that only 1% of Christians are actually affected by anything the bible says and that it doesn't harm anyone. As for the scholarship, Damon being 19, and having no money, and (thankfully) his brother that escaped the small town and is in college himself, is taking him in. Damon is a smart kid but now he has become a hero of sorts and the athiest community wanted to help him out. The fund was over $14K yesterday. Also, it was pretty touch and go there for a while when Damon went silent due his parents taking his phone and computer and I was close to organizing a rescue operation involving beans and his plane, sidekick shane and a bunch of guns and porno leaflets, but thankfully his sister got through to let us know he was okay in the nick of time.

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Well, I feel awkward around people in general, so yeah. My feeling of awkwardness would come from wondering if I'm expected to join in. Do people feel that way at a graduation ceremony when somebody up front says a prayer? Is the entire class reciting a prayer together or was it just the girl at the podium? I think I tuned out my entire graduation ceremony, so it's hard for me to imagine stress from anything that took place up there. My stress came from hoping I wouldn't trip when I got my diploma.
Yeah, the stress from actually participating and walking up is enough. Would it have killed him to sit through this, kept his mouth shut and just moved away after? Sure. Then the next athiest kid would have to do the same and that's how this keeps carrying on. He had the courage to be the one to take the stand. That is why he has "hero" status for many. He wasn't being a shit brat kid. He was making a point,he was in the right, the law was on his side and it took courage. He debated about the letter for a while, seeked advice and rewrote it numerous times. He didn't have to sign it either which was a big point of contention amongst us since he knew if it got out he would face a shit storm. Some reccomended not signing it but ultimately he did what he thought was right and knew it would lend more credence to the letter.
Well, I feel awkward around people in general, so yeah. My feeling of awkwardness would come from wondering if I'm expected to join in.
Yeah, I felt the same exact way when Ron Mexico put his hand on my knee.
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Well, I feel awkward around people in general, so yeah. My feeling of awkwardness would come from wondering if I'm expected to join in. Do people feel that way at a graduation ceremony when somebody up front says a prayer? Is the entire class reciting a prayer together or was it just the girl at the podium? I think I tuned out my entire graduation ceremony, so it's hard for me to imagine stress from anything that took place up there. My stress came from hoping I wouldn't trip when I got my diploma.
Oh and the girl at the podium who recited the prayer went on for 3 minutes. The school is so fucked for not stopping it. It was obvious they supported it and like vb said, they violated the law big time especially in the face of full knowledge that they were being scrutinzed. The ACLU sent them a letter on Friday after their was prayer at the "Senior Night" school event the night prior, which again violated the law. They have no excuse to say they couldn't control it. And really, all this only goes to point out that their prayers weren't for getting in touch with God, they prayed to make a point that they held themselves in elite status above others. They did a Fuck You prayer that I'm sure God just loved.
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I suppose people said the same thing about Rosa Parks.
Oh my hell.
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Some of what isn't said. After the article hit the paper a bunch of people started calling his parents and complaining. they had the preacher and his entourage come to the house and try to convert him. When he basically ignored them when he realized that no rational conversation was going to happen his parents took his phone and computer, money, etc. People trashed their yard and he received numerous death threats. Kids in town were organizing groups to find a way to kick his ass. All this out of love for Jesus. All this despite the fact that these loons don't read their own bible because if they did they would see quickly in the New Testament that Matthew 6:6 calls out those that feel the need to publicly pray as a sin.
I mean, as you write this, you understand that the conclusions you're drawing are totally incorrect, yes? You're just doing it for effect, right? This has nothing to do with the love of Jesus, it's about tradition. These people have been praying for 200 years at graduation, and now a punk wants to change that. It's totally irrelevant what is happening or if it's even illegal. People are upset about their tradition being taken away. Using your extreme leap to the civil rights movement, do you think the KKK actually represents Jesus or the Bible? Seriously?
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