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Why do you say that? That seems to be entirely a matter of opinion, which is fine, but it sounds like you think it's a hard fact. I believe completely the opposite - that although "cheating" necessitates the breaking of a rule, some forms of cheating alter the game more than others do. Throwing a game or a series, for example, would be the worst form of cheating. The fact is, none of those old-tyme guys did do steroids, and discussing whether or not they would have is pointless. Anabolic steroids are much more powerful than greenies, by leaps and bounds. I don't think it's fair to compare the two - not only are they completely different drugs with completely different effects, but again one is drastically stronger than the other. Like comparing wine to heroin, they're just not comparable.
we've had this discussion before....I think doctoring the ball is far worse than steroids as doctoring the ball is active cheating and steroids is passive cheating. whatever, I just don't think you can throw out the career of Barry Bonds because he took steroids for 40% of it.
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Why do you say that? That seems to be entirely a matter of opinion, which is fine, but it sounds like you think it's a hard fact. I believe completely the opposite - that although "cheating" necessitates the breaking of a rule, some forms of cheating alter the game more than others do. Throwing a game or a series, for example, would be the worst form of cheating. The fact is, none of those old-tyme guys did do steroids, and discussing whether or not they would have is pointless.
There's a fundamental difference between throwing a game, and trying to gain a competitive advantage to win a game. The type of cheating of gaylord perry, the type of cheating of taking greenies.. it wall was to gain a competitive advantage. It's no different than steroids, it's just steroids are more effective. That's the only difference. It should be obvious that purposefully losing isn't cheating, it's fraud. IT's something wholly different.
Anabolic steroids are much more powerful than greenies, by leaps and bounds. I don't think it's fair to compare the two - not only are they completely different drugs with completely different effects, but again one is drastically stronger than the other. Like comparing wine to heroin, they're just not comparable.
See, you even admit the only difference is how effective steroids are. That isn't difference of morals, it's difference of biochemistry.
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also you should know, what I'm objecting to is the sort of moral outrage guys like tanner have for cheaters, I'm not trying to argue that steroids effect the actual play of the game the same as a scuffed ball. I'm saying your outrage about either act should be the same. ONe shouldn't be lovable, and the other demonizing, it's the same breach of ethics.

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There's a fundamental difference between throwing a game, and trying to gain a competitive advantage to win a game. The type of cheating of gaylord perry, the type of cheating of taking greenies.. it wall was to gain a competitive advantage. It's no different than steroids, it's just steroids are more effective. That's the only difference. It should be obvious that purposefully losing isn't cheating, it's fraud. IT's something wholly different.
Having read some of Posnanski's back articles.....I think it is very questionable how effective steroids were and how big a part they played in the home run boom.http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/08/06...about-steroids/
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Having read some of Posnanski's back articles.....I think it is very questionable how effective steroids were and how big a part they played in the home run boom.http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/08/06...about-steroids/
I was actually just reading the article Posnanski discusses not that long ago. Really interesting stuff. Thanks for posting Posnanski's thoughts on it, always nice to get his take on topics like this. Eric Walker's article is full of good info, and this leaped out at me more than anything (Posnanski talking about Walker's findings):
...steroids “very heavily favor” building your upper body while home run power mostly comes from lower body strength. He suggests that if Barry Bonds added 20 pounds of pure muscle to his whole body, probably no more than 5 or 7 of those pounds would be lower body, and by his math equation the added power would likely be no more than 2 to 4 feet of length. He points out that while the players may have looked bigger and stronger — and no doubt WERE bigger and stronger — it certainly was not the cause of the home run records.
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also you should know, what I'm objecting to is the sort of moral outrage guys like tanner have for cheaters, I'm not trying to argue that steroids effect the actual play of the game the same as a scuffed ball. I'm saying your outrage about either act should be the same. ONe shouldn't be lovable, and the other demonizing, it's the same breach of ethics.
I think by cheating so much that you can change your body so drastically to make yourself pretty much look like a monster, is outrageous. I am morally outraged by it. Is that wrong of me? I never said I wasn't against other forms of cheating, but steroids have effected athletes in so many different sports. It hits a spot with me. As a former swimmer, I've competed against other swimmers who I've seen take steroids in locker rooms. I just hate the drug and how it has impacted a variety of different sports for so long, and that some sports are still not clean. Players need to be tested in every sport where steroids can contribute. Yes I'm looking at you professional golfers.
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My feeling on steroids is - it happened, MLB was definitely complicit or at least more than happy to turn a blind eye when McGwire and Sosa went after Roger Maris, and it's not like anybody was murdering babies. I just don't think they should make it to the HOF, and I'd be kind of surprised if any of them do. Anybody who definitely took steroids that is. Whether or not Gaylord Perry should be in, I really don't know.There is a difference between taking steroids and scuffing the ball though, which is that unless you're throwing every single pitch with a scuffed ball, you're not breaking the rules as often as a steroid user who is cheating just by being on the field.

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My feeling on steroids is - it happened, MLB was definitely complicit or at least more than happy to turn a blind eye when McGwire and Sosa went after Roger Maris, and it's not like anybody was murdering babies. I just don't think they should make it to the HOF, and I'd be kind of surprised if any of them do. Anybody who definitely took steroids that is. Whether or not Gaylord Perry should be in, I really don't know.There is a difference between taking steroids and scuffing the ball though, which is that unless you're throwing every single pitch with a scuffed ball, you're not breaking the rules as often as a steroid user who is cheating just by being on the field.
Your'e breaking the rules by stepping on the field with a razor, sandpaper, vasoline or what ever you scuff the ball with .
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also you should know, what I'm objecting to is the sort of moral outrage guys like tanner have for cheaters, I'm not trying to argue that steroids effect the actual play of the game the same as a scuffed ball. I'm saying your outrage about either act should be the same. ONe shouldn't be lovable, and the other demonizing, it's the same breach of ethics.
The difference to me is that sandpaper doesn't leave a trail of health problems for young players (the vast majority of whom have no future in professional athletics) who emulate the behavior.
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If you can hit the ball far and hard enough to murder a baby, that's defintely cheating."Jose Bautista could set a new Blue Jay record for murdering babies, surpassing George Bell's 47 infanticides."

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The difference to me is that sandpaper doesn't leave a trail of health problems for young players (the vast majority of whom have no future in professional athletics) who emulate the behavior.
people have god damn free will. If they want to risk health problems in the future ( the existence and extent of said health problems are still debated, btw) they they have the right to. McGuire didn't shove a needle into anyone else's ass ( at least, not without their consent) and it's absurd to blame him for the behavior of others.
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it's absurd to blame him for the behavior of others.
disagree. McGwire was the most popular player BY FAR during his home run race with Sosa. Famous athletes are major role models for kids and they should be held somewhat responsible. If it is ok for a kid's idol to take steroids, why is it wrong for them to take steroids. It sends a horrible message and famous athletes do affect the behavior of others. I don't think McGwire should be in trouble or anything, but he should be going around educating kids and baseball teams in St. Louis who still idolize him about the negative effects of steroids. Maybe he does that already, who knows.Hell, Michael Jordan influenced me to start gambling!Well not really.
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Your'e breaking the rules by stepping on the field with a razor, sandpaper, vasoline or what ever you scuff the ball with .
That's a good point - the spitballer is breaking the rules just by stepping onto the field with an illegal substance. But he still only changes the game to his advantage when he uses that illegal substance. A steroid user can't abstain from cheating for even one pitch, since his illegal advantage is his body, rather than a foreign substance that he's brought with him. That just makes it seem, to me, like a more deplorable and advantageous method of cheating. The other reason ball-scuffing is seen as 'quaint' is that you had/have to do it in front of all of the umpires, the opposing team, and thousands of fans (or now millions, with tv). It's almost like cheating at poker - if you're such a sucker that you can't tell I'm dealing off the bottom, you deserve to be cheated. Not that I ascribe to that philosophy, but at least the one being cheated has every chance to catch their opponent at it. Steroids obviously don't have that caveat since the cheating is done far in advance and off the field, while the rewards are still reaped on the field.
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disagree. McGwire was the most popular player BY FAR during his home run race with Sosa. Famous athletes are major role models for kids and they should be held somewhat responsible. If it is ok for a kid's idol to take steroids, why is it wrong for them to take steroids. It sends a horrible message and famous athletes do affect the behavior of others. I don't think McGwire should be in trouble or anything, but he should be going around educating kids and baseball teams in St. Louis who still idolize him about the negative effects of steroids. Maybe he does that already, who knows.Hell, Michael Jordan influenced me to start gambling!Well not really.
What a bunch of nonsense. You know what influences a kid to take steroids? their desire to succeed. They wan't to make a high school football team, be all city, get a scholarship, look hot for girls. What McGuire did or did not do is so far down on the list of what effects someone's behavior is ridiculous to talk about.
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What a bunch of nonsense. You know what influences a kid to take steroids? their desire to succeed. They wan't to make a high school football team, be all city, get a scholarship, look hot for girls.
Sure. And the more guys who take steroids the harder it is for everyone else to succeed in competition with them.It's absurd now to imagine a successful competitive bodybuilder who doesn't take steroids. It's standard for the contest. I think it would be a bad thing for baseball to go down that path.
What McGuire did or did not do is so far down on the list of what effects someone's behavior is ridiculous to talk about.
I agree that everyone has his own decisions to make and McGuire's influence on any one individual is small. Nevertheless, he has shifted the norm for everyone.
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Sure. And the more guys who take steroids the harder it is for everyone else to succeed in competition with them.It's absurd now to imagine a successful competitive bodybuilder who doesn't take steroids. It's standard for the contest. I think it would be a bad thing for baseball to go down that path.
And that's a fine reason to be against steroids.. but save the nonsense about "oh the children" and "oh their heath!". A child's parents and their peer groups are the overwhelming environmental influences in them taking illegal drugs. McGuire or any other pro athlete, unless it is their parent, means nothing.
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What a bunch of nonsense. You know what influences a kid to take steroids? their desire to succeed. They wan't to make a high school football team, be all city, get a scholarship, look hot for girls. What McGuire did or did not do is so far down on the list of what effects someone's behavior is ridiculous to talk about.
Some of my opinions are based on factual information. There are studies on all these topics, but you can call my opinions ridiculous and nonsense, I don't care. You are right kids and all athletes do take steroids because of the reasons you stated, but not all kids have parental figures to tell them right from wrong. I don't know if you live in an area where there are no super famous athletes, but where I live people still idolize the shit out of Barry Bonds and kids still wear his jersey to school every day. If you think pro baseball players do not influence steroid use because of their fame, than what you are saying is nonsense.
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  • 6 months later...
Some of my opinions are based on factual information. There are studies on all these topics, but you can call my opinions ridiculous and nonsense, I don't care.
I know this is a bit late.. but feel free to share your "factual information" and to site your "studies", or shut the fuck up. saying the phrase "studies have shown" without citing a study is the most empty rhetoric around.
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  • 3 weeks later...

Regarding the OP and Red Sox fans sucking (and booing players):Dustin Pedroia:

“It’s such a long season. In June and July, you don’t remember these games. I think the fans are great. They live and die by us and that makes it special.“In my rookie year, they were booing me and I thought it was great. I wasn’t playing good. It’s just what they demand out of their players. You never want to get booed, obviously, but they care so much. They care about every game, and that makes it fun.’’Unless you start like Carl Crawford or Salty.“I talked to Carl in spring training,’’ said Pedroia. “I told him that you find out a lot about yourself playing here.
Incidentally, Pedroia is unquestionably my favorite player in baseball. Well, unless some crazy team hires my other favorite player, Pedro.
The key play of the series opener came in the bottom of the eighth with the score tied, 2-2. Leading off the inning, Aybar banged a ball down the right-field line and foolishly tried to make it a triple. Pedroia took J.D. Drew’s throw, pivoted, and gunned a one-hop strike to Jed Lowrie at third.“That’s why in spring training I don’t screw around with that,’’ said Pedroia. “I always try and get my legs underneath me. I don’t ever go 50 percent in those drills. It’s going to come down to three or four games a year where we make a good throw, we win. Tonight it was one of those games. Practice pays off.’’
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14039391http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13839881http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13676173http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13604919 <---- Wow.tl;dr : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djQZhUc-0U0
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