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Thanks, Base Jester. I was going to say the same thing, but you did it much better. That passage is absolutely not about the resurrection. In Matthew 24 it's even clearer, because the disciples ask "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" and again they are told that their generation will be alive to see it happen.
The disciples asked "What will be the sign of your coming?"Christ begins to explain what those signs are, and He says the people who see those signs will be the generation hat will not pass away, not the ones who are listening to Him that day.
Paul only "met" a vision of the risen Christ, hence a somewhat metaphorical meeting. I specified "in his lifetime" (althrough I realize now that you probably thought I meant "him" as Paul, when in fact I was using the pronoun about Jesus -- my mistake for not making the pronoun clearer). Paul never met the living Jesus.
Most believe that Christ did appear to Paul, The resurrected Christ, not a vision of the resurrected Christ. Which is why I said he (Paul) did meet Christ.Although we can explore the idea you are promoting that it was only a vision.So here is Paul, a hyper religious Jew, so hyper religious that he is given the job to kill Christians for heresy, and this hyper religious Jewish man, within 3 years is rebuking Peter for refusing to eat pork.The idea that Paul had a falafel induced vision that made him completely change his world view into the very belief system he hated, and held onto to these beliefs even while being imprisoned and tortured for his beliefs is a bigger mystery than whether or not Christ could appear to Paul in real life or not.
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I have to admit not being aware of this as a popular belief. Do you identify yourself as a Preterist?Do you personally think the tribulation has already occurred? Has the event Jesus meant by, "The stars of heaven shall fall," already occurred? And if so, what does that mean to you?
No I am a mid trib believer.If you do want to see the preterist view read Matthews Bible handbook. Interesting, but I don't hold to that.
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Yes, while Israel was a wandering tribe they were given rules, and after they became a functioning city they were given new rules, some of these new ones superseded the old ones. One of these was the the rule that a man's sin would be visited on his children, then God changed it to say that no longer would a man bite a sour grape and his children's teeth be put on edge, meaning the sins of the father would not go forward to the sons.God also gave Israel rules that changed after Christ, because it was no longer necessary for sin to be dealt with through the priest, now a man could ask forgiveness directly from God.If you feel this is God being contradictory then you are reaching for any excuse. Things change, and God can change rules for the changing circumstances obviously.
I could have read that a million times and nver come up with that meaning.
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The disciples asked "What will be the sign of your coming?"Christ begins to explain what those signs are, and He says the people who see those signs will be the generation hat will not pass away, not the ones who are listening to Him that day.
No, he really doesn't.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
You're choosing to read this metaphorically. As a believer, you have to read it metaphorically, in order to keep it from being wrong. But there's no metaphor there. [That's also Base Jester's point. Unless you believe that all these things have already occurred, in the lifetime of that generation, then the statement is wrong.] You're saying that what the bolded lines mean is "the generation that sees these things shall be deathless." But that's not what it says. In fact, it says exactly the opposite -- "this generation will not die until all these things happen."
Most believe that Christ did appear to Paul, The resurrected Christ, not a vision of the resurrected Christ. Which is why I said he (Paul) did meet Christ.Although we can explore the idea you are promoting that it was only a vision.
Well, again, believers believe. But Paul himself called it a vision. Here are the passages, Acts 9 followed by Acts 22:
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
6And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
Contradiction alert in bold.Here's what Paul calls it in Acts 26:
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision
Paul never claims to have seen anyone, but only to have heard a voice, and he also calls it a vision. So I don't think I'm too far off in calling it a vision myself. You want to argue it's not a vision, take it up with Paul.[P.S. By habit I use the KJV translation, but just to be sure I checked other English-language translations. Darby, Wycliffe, Young's Literal, and all contemporary-English translations also use the word "vision" in Acts 26:19.]
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Not really; mankind needs a Savior, Christ forgives.The rest is just stuff
Y'know, as much as I debate here, I am sympathetic to this viewpoint. I'm not like Crow, saying it's all bullshit and the world would be better off if everyone stopped believing it. Although I'm not a believer, I've been deeply engaged for years now with the history of Christianity, the history of the bible, the words of the bible itself, and the backgrounds of how all the different schools of interpretation came to exist. I admire liberal Christians like MLK, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, and many others -- even DN. Not because they are also politically liberal, but because their interpretation of Christianity is this: we were given a model of pure love, and commanded to be like that. Help me, God, to be like that more and more every day. Period. Yes, the bible could very well have incorrect things in it. Yes, God seems like a real jerk sometimes in the OT. No, we may not have the form of the bible that the people nearest in time to Christ would have recognized. Yes, we may even believe things they would never believe, and vice versa. But none of that matters. We are commanded to live as a model of love, and that is all that matters.That's an interpretation of real beauty and simplicity, and one that would absolutely make the world a better place if honestly and humbly practiced.But what that is NOT is fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is a profound altering of the historical understanding of the bible, in a direction that the actual reading does not support, to achieve a political agenda that is inimical to many teachings of the bible. [Obviously, I know you'll disagree with that, BG, but that's a difference of opinion we'll just have to let lie for now.]I'm not trying to get anyone to lose their faith. I'm trying to get them to let go of a narrow modern misinterpretation in favor of something far vaster and lovelier.
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No, he really doesn't.You're choosing to read this metaphorically. As a believer, you have to read it metaphorically, in order to keep it from being wrong. But there's no metaphor there. [That's also Base Jester's point. Unless you believe that all these things have already occurred, in the lifetime of that generation, then the statement is wrong.] You're saying that what the bolded lines mean is "the generation that sees these things shall be deathless." But that's not what it says. In fact, it says exactly the opposite -- "this generation will not die until all these things happen."
You don't think that pointing to a fig tree fruit maturing to be an indication of when the fruit will be ready in the verse before is the clear indicator that the next verse when He says likewise...when you see these things, then you know the end is near?Seems really obvious to me.You are trying to support an interpretation that I think is a stretch.
Well, again, believers believe. But Paul himself called it a vision. Here are the passages, Acts 9 followed by Acts 22:Contradiction alert in bold.Here's what Paul calls it in Acts 26:Paul never claims to have seen anyone, but only to have heard a voice, and he also calls it a vision. So I don't think I'm too far off in calling it a vision myself. You want to argue it's not a vision, take it up with Paul.[P.S. By habit I use the KJV translation, but just to be sure I checked other English-language translations. Darby, Wycliffe, Young's Literal, and all contemporary-English translations also use the word "vision" in Acts 26:19.]
The question is what do you think this vision means?A thought that came from Paul? A picture in his head from God? Or a meeting of a metaphysical Being beyond the scope of our ability to describe in a manner that does it justice?In other words, where was the source of Paul's 'vision'? Was it an outside source communicating to Paul? Or was it an internal result of chemicals and emotions coming together and causing Paul to think he saw Christ?If it was an outside source, what is the difference between meeting Christ in your 'vision' which could be described as a personal meeting...or meeting Christ in physical form so that someone else could see the two of you talking?
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Y'know, as much as I debate here, I am sympathetic to this viewpoint. I'm not like Crow, saying it's all bullshit and the world would be better off if everyone stopped believing it. Although I'm not a believer, I've been deeply engaged for years now with the history of Christianity, the history of the bible, the words of the bible itself, and the backgrounds of how all the different schools of interpretation came to exist. I admire liberal Christians like MLK, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, and many others -- even DN. Not because they are also politically liberal, but because their interpretation of Christianity is this: we were given a model of pure love, and commanded to be like that. Help me, God, to be like that more and more every day. Period. Yes, the bible could very well have incorrect things in it. Yes, God seems like a real jerk sometimes in the OT. No, we may not have the form of the bible that the people nearest in time to Christ would have recognized. Yes, we may even believe things they would never believe, and vice versa. But none of that matters. We are commanded to live as a model of love, and that is all that matters.That's an interpretation of real beauty and simplicity, and one that would absolutely make the world a better place if honestly and humbly practiced.But what that is NOT is fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is a profound altering of the historical understanding of the bible, in a direction that the actual reading does not support, to achieve a political agenda that is inimical to many teachings of the bible. [Obviously, I know you'll disagree with that, BG, but that's a difference of opinion we'll just have to let lie for now.]I'm not trying to get anyone to lose their faith. I'm trying to get them to let go of a narrow modern misinterpretation in favor of something far vaster and lovelier.
Lovelier in your opinion.Christ also said He was the only way to heaven, and that He would cause wars between mothers and children, brothers etc.You can't just pick the new age-y feel good passages.You are trying to take the teachings of Christ and reduce them down to a way to make this world a practical substitute for heaven.It is not, and it will not work as such. Emasculating the teachings of Christ will not make the world a better place. Because that was never it's purpose.It is a message that the world is dying but there is a way to escape it, not a way to restore it.
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Lovelier in your opinion.Christ also said He was the only way to heaven, and that He would cause wars between mothers and children, brothers etc.You can't just pick the new age-y feel good passages.You are trying to take the teachings of Christ and reduce them down to a way to make this world a practical substitute for heaven.It is not, and it will not work as such. Emasculating the teachings of Christ will not make the world a better place. Because that was never it's purpose.It is a message that the world is dying but there is a way to escape it, not a way to restore it.
Yeah, SB, quit trying to help people lead a more meaningful and moral life, that's not what it's about! If you go trying to make sense of the bible you'll ruin it for all the rest. People just want to have their own interpretaion. I know I just sold an 06 BMW 750li to a preacher who'd be pretty pissed off at your interpretation. I mean the next thing you know you'll have the church spending $28K on helping people or even worse, a friggin' Honda! C'mon!And what would these people have to do?http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100308/ap_on_...igeria_violenceI guess the Christians were too busy forgiving everyone 77 times as they were slashed with machetes. Oh well. The world is dying anyway and they get to go to heaven as long as they remembered to ask forgiveness before they got hacked.
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So the job of fundamentalists is to make the world nastier, more hateful, more divided, and altogether worse? I can see that. Kudos on a job well done. I guess.Well, we unbelievers still got the intelligence thing going for us, which is nice.

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You can't just pick the new age-y feel good passages.
Can't you imagine Jews and Muslims saying the same thing to Christians?
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So the job of fundamentalists is to make the world nastier, more hateful, more divided, and altogether worse? I can see that. Kudos on a job well done. I guess.Well, we unbelievers still got the intelligence thing going for us, which is nice.
If you were trying to quit smoking and were craving a cigarette and I went up to you and said, "Why don't you just suck on my **** instead?" and then you said, "Wow, it's so great that this will help me quit smoking!" and I said, "Well, no, this won't help you quit smoking, but it does have other benefits," would you then say, "You're telling me that sucking your **** is going to make me want to smoke cigarettes even more?" in which case the answer might still be "yes," but that's only because I forgot where I was going with this.Oh yeah, just because the point of something isn't "A" does not mean that its point is the opposite of "A."
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on one hand i feel sorry for baloon guy. so brain washed he actually believes the nonsene he spouts. on the other hand, i envy him, his world makes sense. and he's probably happier than i am.

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No I am a mid trib believer.
There's a visual aid in Wikipedia's Rapture article that really good about tribulation ideas, but pretty much makes me want to give up on figuring out what everybody believes.I thought this was pretty comic as well:
The two principal schools of Preterist thought are commonly called Partial Preterism and Full Preterism. Preterists disagree significantly about the exact meaning of the terms used to denote these divisions of Preterist thought.
Cast off the shoes!
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There's a visual aid in Wikipedia's Rapture article that really good about tribulation ideas, but pretty much makes me want to give up on figuring out what everybody believes.I thought this was pretty comic as well:Cast off the shoes!
I never heard the term preterist until SB brought it up.
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So the job of fundamentalists is to make the world nastier, more hateful, more divided, and altogether worse? I can see that. Kudos on a job well done. I guess.Well, we unbelievers still got the intelligence thing going for us, which is nice.
If you are able to draw this conclusion from what I wrote, than it really doesn't matter what you read, you are going to come up with the answer you want to have before you even asked the question.
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Can't you imagine Jews and Muslims saying the same thing to Christians?
But Christians aren't saying let's just take the parts of your religions we think we like and ignore the rest and then we'll pretend that we have accomplished something that you Jews and Muslims were missing from your religions.I guess should ever actually we say that, then I can imagine them saying it to us, only with heavy accents and a lot more phlem.
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on one hand i feel sorry for baloon guy. so brain washed he actually believes the nonsene he spouts. on the other hand, i envy him, his world makes sense. and he's probably happier than i am.
Usually sympathy works best when you are in a better position than the sympathee, but I get your point.Yes, I am happy with life, and comfortable knowing that when I die, nothing but goodness will happen to me. So I guess I got it all.I can see why so many of you guys feel the need to 'save' me from this crazy thing called religion.
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Yeah, SB, quit trying to help people lead a more meaningful and moral life, that's not what it's about! If you go trying to make sense of the bible you'll ruin it for all the rest. People just want to have their own interpretaion. I know I just sold an 06 BMW 750li to a preacher who'd be pretty pissed off at your interpretation. I mean the next thing you know you'll have the church spending $28K on helping people or even worse, a friggin' Honda! C'mon!And what would these people have to do?http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100308/ap_on_...igeria_violenceI guess the Christians were too busy forgiving everyone 77 times as they were slashed with machetes. Oh well. The world is dying anyway and they get to go to heaven as long as they remembered to ask forgiveness before they got hacked.
I love that you are judging a guy for buying a 4 year old used car because you don't think he should drive a BMW and be a preacher....cause preachers who commit their lives to a church and often stay working at the same job for decades should never be paid a decent wage...But you didn't have quite the conviction of your opinion to refuse to sell him the car, at the best price you could get...because you have no standards to hold yourself against?
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And what would these people have to do?http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100308/ap_on_...igeria_violenceI guess the Christians were too busy forgiving everyone 77 times as they were slashed with machetes. Oh well. The world is dying anyway and they get to go to heaven as long as they remembered to ask forgiveness before they got hacked.
I think in your desire to find some news story that paints Christians in a bad light you ignored this little tidbit in the story:
The Rev. Pandang Yamsat, the president of a local Christian group, said he has urged his congregation not to respond violently to Muslims. However, he said he believes Muslims in the area want to control the region and that any peace talks would only give Muslims "time to conquer territory with swords.""We have done our best to tell our members, 'don't go and attack Muslims, they are your brother,'" Yamsat said. However, "'if they come to dislodge you in your place, stand to defend yourself.'"
So when did you want to get into a "Who can find links to more atrocities done by people who believe in God vs those that refuse to believe in God?"I am open Thursday
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Usually sympathy works best when you are in a better position than the sympathee, but I get your point.Yes, I am happy with life, and comfortable knowing that when I die, nothing but goodness will happen to me. So I guess I got it all.I can see why so many of you guys feel the need to 'save' me from this crazy thing called religion.
Kind of a tangent, but do you think its fine for people to just believe whatever makes them happy? Let's say we find a bunch of people who believe that in 88 years a giant sentient banana is going to appear over New Jersey and reward all the guidos with everlasting banana-flavored happiness. Furthermore, we find that believing this causes them to be extremely happy and fulfilled (despite moving to New Jersey). Would you try to convince them they are wrong? I mean, taking away the issue of whether or not its proper to meddle in other people's business, do you think they should know the truth even though it may make them a little less happy in the present?
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Kind of a tangent, but do you think its fine for people to just believe whatever makes them happy? Let's say we find a bunch of people who believe that in 88 years a giant sentient banana is going to appear over New Jersey and reward all the guidos with everlasting banana-flavored happiness. Furthermore, we find that believing this causes them to be extremely happy and fulfilled (despite moving to New Jersey). Would you try to convince them they are wrong? I mean, taking away the issue of whether or not its proper to meddle in other people's business, do you think they should know the truth even though it may make them a little less happy in the present?
Well, I would, but that is because I have found the truth, you guys are believing a lie based on bad interpretations of the data, which is why I am laughing when you guys try to 'save' me.It is kind of like a person says they are on their way to Hawaii, but they take the 5 north, now you can chuckle and try to tell them that they really need to look at the 10 east, but that isn't really helping. Sure you are right that they are wrong, but you don't know what is right. In the mean time I will point them to the 405 and LAX and they will arrive at their destination, all while you guys are spinning your wheels on the 10 driving through west Texas trying to tell yourselves that you are getting closer every day.
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But Christians aren't saying let's just take the parts of your religions we think we like and ignore the rest and then we'll pretend that we have accomplished something that you Jews and Muslims were missing from your religions.
I don't think you're trying very hard to see their perspective. The Jews imagine the Christians reading along through the Old Testament and having Jesus amplify or strike according to their preferences. "In the beginning . . . " Pretty cool. Keep that. Flood. Check. "Let my people go!" Kick ass. Keep. Parting the Red Sea. More kick ass. Keep. Remember to borrow that for a Lord of the Rings movie.Dietary restrictions. What? We like bacon. (Whispering among themselves) 'Jesus says, "God changed his mind. Pork is OK."'Burnt offering. Kinda stupid. Skip it.God destroys Sodom. Kick ass. Keeper. Jesus says God was serious about the gay part.Stonings. Really? Skip it.
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Well, I would, but that is because I have found the truth, you guys are believing a lie based on bad interpretations of the data, which is why I am laughing when you guys try to 'save' me.It is kind of like a person says they are on their way to Hawaii, but they take the 5 north, now you can chuckle and try to tell them that they really need to look at the 10 east, but that isn't really helping. Sure you are right that they are wrong, but you don't know what is right. In the mean time I will point them to the 405 and LAX and they will arrive at their destination, all while you guys are spinning your wheels on the 10 driving through west Texas trying to tell yourselves that you are getting closer every day.
I just wanted to check that we are on the same page as far as wanting to know what the truth is regardless of whether it is the most beneficial truth.
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Four Catholic men and a Catholic woman were having coffee.> > > The first Catholic man tells his friends, "My son is a priest, when he walks > into a room, everyone calls him 'Father'."> > The second Catholic man chirps, "My son is a Bishop. When he walks into a > room people call him 'Your Grace'."> > > The third Catholic gent says, "My son is a Cardinal. When he enters a room > everyone says 'Your Eminence'."> > > The fourth Catholic man then says, "My son is the Pope. When he walks into a > room people call him 'Your Holiness'."> > > Since the lone Catholic woman was sipping her coffee in silence, the four > men give her a subtle, "Well....?"> She proudly replies, "I have a daughter,> > > Slim,> > > Tall,> > > 38D breast,> > > 24" waist and> > > 34" hips.> > > When she walks into a room, people say, "Oh My God."

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The next time a super bowl loser walks off the field and tells the press 'God just decided it was not our day'......you let me know.
[Adrian] Gonzalez sat in a chair in front of his locker and insisted that it was all part of God's plan that the Red Sox failed to make the playoffs."It's definitely something that we didn't plan for. We were wholly confident that we would make the playoffs but it didn't happen," he said. "We didn't do a better job with the lead. I'm a firm believer that God has a plan and it wasn't in his plan for us to move forward."Asked what he saw from the team this month, Gonzalez stayed on his theme."God didn't have it in the cards for us," he said.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...crawford_a.htmlHow about if you'd come up big for us even ONCE during the last few weeks of the season we would have made it? How about if you'd managed even one single RBI or extra-base hit during our final 3-game series in Baltimore we would have made it. Asshole.
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