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Some $4.40 Ak Hands


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lol @ this place.
loloololololol
Hey, fine by me if you guys want to flip in the first level of tournies that you have a huge edge in.I can't remember who said it, but some pro once said when you have a 70% chance against the field in a game, why on earth would you ever flip b/c you're just giving them extra 20% chance to win.
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I think threads like these come down to volume played. If you're going to play 100 4.40s today, then just shove AK and forget it because the times you double through AQ, AJ, etc. are worth it, and you'll win 50% of the 88-QQ hands that call you anyway.If, however, you're going to play like 2 a day and get tilted spending an hour only to lose to 33, then you should call/3-bet but not shove.
good analysis. again it comes back to the fact that it is a $4.40 and AK wins more often than not against calling ranges. Its not a coinflip situation. Not only are you dominating weaker aces but also donk calls with KQ,KJ or worse which happens regularly in the first couple levels of these.
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So, obv one of thees comes up in a 4.40 I was playing about 5 minutes before first break. I have like 2500. Blinds 50/100 UTG+1 minraises. One call, I shove in the BB with AK. UTG has KK, gg me. I haven't played many 4.40s, but given what I saw players call with the last couple of days, I think shoving is right in this (and the other spots in this thread). You may be 70% better than the field, but part of the edge in these is that people will call you with crap and you're not going to be 50/50.Also AK < 72 AIPF heads up in a single table SnG for me tonight. Stupid hand.

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hand 1 i flatted, someone reraised, original raiser pushed..... I called, he showed QQ, I won teh race.Hand 2 I 4-bet shoved and he snapped w/ AA, I did not suck out.Obviously flatting is teh best strategy.

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Hey, fine by me if you guys want to flip in the first level of tournies that you have a huge edge in.I can't remember who said it, but some pro once said when you have a 70% chance against the field in a game, why on earth would you ever flip b/c you're just giving them extra 20% chance to win.
+1...This is exactly what I was thinking of but I couldn't remember the quote. Also what cd said about it having to do with the volume you play, I can certainly understand that and agree that its a good analysis. If this is the only tourny you are playing it is def reckless to make this move, but if your doing 100 of these a day then I guess its more understandable if you want to push what may be a small edge.
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This thread is interesting.I will be paraphrasing:I do not like to gamble with AK.Why not? It seems like a good hand to gamble with, even if early. These arent super deep stacked tournies. You only have 75 BB to start these things and within 30 minutes you may only have like 25 BB once you get to the 25/50 level. Getting the money in pre you really only fear one hand and obviously that is Aces. Yeah it kinda sucks to if we are against KK, but you are not stone dead. Everything else you go against you are flipping or crushing.I am more of a smaller baller than youI see this a lot. The small ball approach should be used by experienced players against experienced opponents and more importantly should be implemented with way deeper stacks. I am thinking > 150 BB tournies. Trying to see cheap flops, making small raises, only ever calling pre-flop just can't work nearly as well in a 75 BB starting stack tourney....its called pokerThis is just plain silly. We know its called poker. But this doesnt answer the OP. I love when people overplay shove AK. They are the dead money.Are you sure? Comments like these cause the better players to make "looool" and "lol @ this place" posts.I do not like to race this earlyRacing early is a hell of a lot better than shoving rags with less than 10 BB later in the tourney into big stacks to your left.Seeing a flop IP is better than to race against AA or KK.Assuming you are against AA or KK when an Ace or King flops you are getting it in I presume on the flop only to lose anyway. Assuming you are against a pocket pair and an Ace or King flops, they are check folding and you make nothing more.I want to find a bigger edgeHow long will you wait to find this bigger edge? In the first hour of these you may not get a better playable hand than AK...concerning the hand posted on page 2Yes. Snap ship AK with 25 BB AINEC.

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This thread is interesting.I will be paraphrasing:I do not like to gamble with AK.Why not? It seems like a good hand to gamble with, even if early. These arent super deep stacked tournies. You only have 75 BB to start these things and within 30 minutes you may only have like 25 BB once you get to the 25/50 level. Getting the money in pre you really only fear one hand and obviously that is Aces. Yeah it kinda sucks to if we are against KK, but you are not stone dead. Everything else you go against you are flipping or crushing.I am more of a smaller baller than youI see this a lot. The small ball approach should be used by experienced players against experienced opponents and more importantly should be implemented with way deeper stacks. I am thinking > 150 BB tournies. Trying to see cheap flops, making small raises, only ever calling pre-flop just can't work nearly as well in a 75 BB starting stack tourney....its called pokerThis is just plain silly. We know its called poker. But this doesnt answer the OP. I love when people overplay shove AK. They are the dead money.Are you sure? Comments like these cause the better players to make "looool" and "lol @ this place" posts.I do not like to race this earlyRacing early is a hell of a lot better than shoving rags with less than 10 BB later in the tourney into big stacks to your left.Seeing a flop IP is better than to race against AA or KK.Assuming you are against AA or KK when an Ace or King flops you are getting it in I presume on the flop only to lose anyway. Assuming you are against a pocket pair and an Ace or King flops, they are check folding and you make nothing more.I want to find a bigger edgeHow long will you wait to find this bigger edge? In the first hour of these you may not get a better playable hand than AK...concerning the hand posted on page 2Yes. Snap ship AK with 25 BB AINEC.
POTD - Well said, sir
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This thread is interesting.I will be paraphrasing:I do not like to gamble with AK.Why not? It seems like a good hand to gamble with, even if early. These arent super deep stacked tournies. You only have 75 BB to start these things and within 30 minutes you may only have like 25 BB once you get to the 25/50 level. Getting the money in pre you really only fear one hand and obviously that is Aces. Yeah it kinda sucks to if we are against KK, but you are not stone dead. Everything else you go against you are flipping or crushing.I am more of a smaller baller than youI see this a lot. The small ball approach should be used by experienced players against experienced opponents and more importantly should be implemented with way deeper stacks. I am thinking > 150 BB tournies. Trying to see cheap flops, making small raises, only ever calling pre-flop just can't work nearly as well in a 75 BB starting stack tourney....its called pokerThis is just plain silly. We know its called poker. But this doesnt answer the OP. I love when people overplay shove AK. They are the dead money.Are you sure? Comments like these cause the better players to make "looool" and "lol @ this place" posts.I do not like to race this earlyRacing early is a hell of a lot better than shoving rags with less than 10 BB later in the tourney into big stacks to your left.Seeing a flop IP is better than to race against AA or KK.Assuming you are against AA or KK when an Ace or King flops you are getting it in I presume on the flop only to lose anyway. Assuming you are against a pocket pair and an Ace or King flops, they are check folding and you make nothing more.I want to find a bigger edgeHow long will you wait to find this bigger edge? In the first hour of these you may not get a better playable hand than AK...concerning the hand posted on page 2Yes. Snap ship AK with 25 BB AINEC.
OK I'll try to respond to these with my feelings on them in summation..Thinking you need to be in a super deep stacked tourny to NOT prf shove AK seems silly. The early stages of these tournys afford you plenty of time to see flops and play poker, IMO. If you disagree with that statement I can't convince you otherwise and I won't try.Re: Small Ball...Yes I agree you can't play 4.40's using small ball to a tee...but that does not mean you throw small ball out the window entirely, some concepts of it can serve you well to observe still. And maybe just saying "its called poker" doesn't exactly answer anything for you, but all I'm saying is that when we have enough chips and are in a comfortable M zone we don't need to play prf shove-poker and it can be reckless to do so.I love when people overplay shove AK. They are the dead money.....To clarify, yes when someone shoves over a standard raise their 50+ BB's with AK, I chuckle. Of COURSE I laugh more if they happen to get called by some worse A or a med/small pair who has plenty of chips to avoid racing, and I know it happens..but still its just unnecessary IMO.I want to find a bigger edgeHow long will you wait to find this bigger edge? In the first hour of these you may not get a better playable hand than AK... You will, typically, have ample time to see some flops with other hands, playing your position, etc. to capitalize on other people's post-flop mistakes that give you big edges. If you go card dead well thats the rub, but playing like this because you "may not see a better hand than AK in the next hour" is shortsighted. You will usually find a fair number of playable hands and if you are a better post flop player than you can make them work for you. And again, just because you're flatting or making a normal 3bet/no shoving prf doesn't mean you're losing the hand. Its not SOO small ball to see flops and play poker.
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This thread is interesting.I will be paraphrasing:I do not like to gamble with AK.Why not? It seems like a good hand to gamble with, even if early. These arent super deep stacked tournies. You only have 75 BB to start these things and within 30 minutes you may only have like 25 BB once you get to the 25/50 level. Getting the money in pre you really only fear one hand and obviously that is Aces. Yeah it kinda sucks to if we are against KK, but you are not stone dead. Everything else you go against you are flipping or crushing.I am more of a smaller baller than youI see this a lot. The small ball approach should be used by experienced players against experienced opponents and more importantly should be implemented with way deeper stacks. I am thinking > 150 BB tournies. Trying to see cheap flops, making small raises, only ever calling pre-flop just can't work nearly as well in a 75 BB starting stack tourney....its called pokerThis is just plain silly. We know its called poker. But this doesnt answer the OP. I love when people overplay shove AK. They are the dead money.Are you sure? Comments like these cause the better players to make "looool" and "lol @ this place" posts.I do not like to race this earlyRacing early is a hell of a lot better than shoving rags with less than 10 BB later in the tourney into big stacks to your left.Seeing a flop IP is better than to race against AA or KK.Assuming you are against AA or KK when an Ace or King flops you are getting it in I presume on the flop only to lose anyway. Assuming you are against a pocket pair and an Ace or King flops, they are check folding and you make nothing more.I want to find a bigger edgeHow long will you wait to find this bigger edge? In the first hour of these you may not get a better playable hand than AK...concerning the hand posted on page 2Yes. Snap ship AK with 25 BB AINEC.
POTD - Well said, sir
winnar of teh thread
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OK I'll try to respond to these with my feelings on them in summation..Thinking you need to be in a super deep stacked tourny to NOT prf shove AK seems silly. The early stages of these tournys afford you plenty of time to see flops and play poker, IMO. If you disagree with that statement I can't convince you otherwise and I won't try.Re: Small Ball...Yes I agree you can't play 4.40's using small ball to a tee...but that does not mean you throw small ball out the window entirely, some concepts of it can serve you well to observe still. And maybe just saying "its called poker" doesn't exactly answer anything for you, but all I'm saying is that when we have enough chips and are in a comfortable M zone we don't need to play prf shove-poker and it can be reckless to do so.I love when people overplay shove AK. They are the dead money.....To clarify, yes when someone shoves over a standard raise their 50+ BB's with AK, I chuckle. Of COURSE I laugh more if they happen to get called by some worse A or a med/small pair who has plenty of chips to avoid racing, and I know it happens..but still its just unnecessary IMO.I want to find a bigger edgeHow long will you wait to find this bigger edge? In the first hour of these you may not get a better playable hand than AK... You will, typically, have ample time to see some flops with other hands, playing your position, etc. to capitalize on other people's post-flop mistakes that give you big edges. If you go card dead well thats the rub, but playing like this because you "may not see a better hand than AK in the next hour" is shortsighted. You will usually find a fair number of playable hands and if you are a better post flop player than you can make them work for you. And again, just because you're flatting or making a normal 3bet/no shoving prf doesn't mean you're losing the hand. Its not SOO small ball to see flops and play poker.
lol this is silly, if you're getting called by those hands and yet sometimes running into aces and kings then you realize it's still the most profitable play by far? Your edge is farfarfar bigger by getting these doubles and then "playing poker" (lol @ this though, just so you know you don't get any bonus points for playing postflop as opposed to pushing these edges pre)
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This thread is interesting.I will be paraphrasing:I do not like to gamble with AK.Why not? It seems like a good hand to gamble with, even if early. These arent super deep stacked tournies. You only have 75 BB to start these things and within 30 minutes you may only have like 25 BB once you get to the 25/50 level. Getting the money in pre you really only fear one hand and obviously that is Aces. Yeah it kinda sucks to if we are against KK, but you are not stone dead. Everything else you go against you are flipping or crushing.I am more of a smaller baller than youI see this a lot. The small ball approach should be used by experienced players against experienced opponents and more importantly should be implemented with way deeper stacks. I am thinking > 150 BB tournies. Trying to see cheap flops, making small raises, only ever calling pre-flop just can't work nearly as well in a 75 BB starting stack tourney....its called pokerThis is just plain silly. We know its called poker. But this doesnt answer the OP. I love when people overplay shove AK. They are the dead money.Are you sure? Comments like these cause the better players to make "looool" and "lol @ this place" posts.I do not like to race this earlyRacing early is a hell of a lot better than shoving rags with less than 10 BB later in the tourney into big stacks to your left.Seeing a flop IP is better than to race against AA or KK.Assuming you are against AA or KK when an Ace or King flops you are getting it in I presume on the flop only to lose anyway. Assuming you are against a pocket pair and an Ace or King flops, they are check folding and you make nothing more.I want to find a bigger edgeHow long will you wait to find this bigger edge? In the first hour of these you may not get a better playable hand than AK...concerning the hand posted on page 2Yes. Snap ship AK with 25 BB AINEC.
Where are the arguers now?!?
I'm still here (work got in the way) but I wouldn't call myself an arguer. I too agree that it was the post of the day. (no SW)I think it raised some great points that made me think. I will admit that I don't play nearly the volume of most players on this site. I'm just offering up my opinion and I enjoy getting different viewpoints when some disagrees with my line of thinking. I do not like to gamble with AK.I am not someone who likes to get it all in pre-flop with AK especially early. I used to jam it in but when I started calling in position more my results got better. But I totally see the line of thinking. Shove build chips. Shove loose hop in the next 4.40. However if there is a hand that I want to 'gamble' with - AK is it. However, when the opportunity arises, I will ship AK pre-flop. Full Tilt Poker Game #13458251480: $35,000 Guarantee (99408710), Table 81 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:41:21 ET - 2009/07/17Seat 1: pat0499 (20,107)Seat 2: Kingpin3187 (24,080)Seat 3: jackfleck (35,760)Seat 4: ROCKYBOYY (7,213)Seat 5: NexFareast (9,814)Seat 6: Wildspoke (8,956)Seat 7: RedNut81 (12,185)Seat 8: poketmaniac (17,970)Seat 9: apphilivey009 (41,550)pat0499 antes 75Kingpin3187 antes 75jackfleck antes 75ROCKYBOYY antes 75NexFareast antes 75Wildspoke antes 75RedNut81 antes 75poketmaniac antes 75apphilivey009 antes 75apphilivey009 posts the small blind of 300pat0499 posts the big blind of 600The button is in seat #8*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Wildspoke [As Kc]Kingpin3187 has 15 seconds left to actKingpin3187 foldsjackfleck raises to 1,800ROCKYBOYY foldsNexFareast has 15 seconds left to actNexFareast foldsWildspoke raises to 8,881, and is all inRedNut81 foldspoketmaniac foldsapphilivey009 foldspat0499 foldsjackfleck calls 7,081Wildspoke shows [As Kc]jackfleck shows [Jc Ac]*** FLOP *** [Qc 3h 4h]*** TURN *** [Qc 3h 4h] [Qs]*** RIVER *** [Qc 3h 4h Qs] [Js]Wildspoke: ggWildspoke shows a pair of Queensjackfleck shows two pair, Queens and Jacksjackfleck wins the pot (19,337) with two pair, Queens and JacksI want to find a bigger edgeHow long will you wait to find this bigger edge? In the first hour of these you may not get a better playable hand than AK...By bigger edge I guess I mean I like making the decision after the flop. Someone said that the players are so bad that they may call an AI with a weaker ace. I think they will do the same after the flop too. I am more of a smaller baller than youI would definitely say that this does not apply to me. I rarely if ever am the first to limp into a pot and when I raise it's usually 3X. I don't believe I'm good enough to 2X or 2.5XThanks again for the great post.Joe
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Gnshustler's the only one who doesn't have his head up his ass. Perhaps the real problem is the fact that these "sliders" don't know how to properly play AK from any position. So naturally the best alternative is to shove and play bingo. I don't necessarily disagree with this strategy. A weaker player wants to make large raises preflop to avoid getting outplayed on the flop. Others play smallball.For what it's worth I 3bet the first and flat the second.

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Gnshustler's the only one who doesn't have his head up his ass. Perhaps the real problem is the fact that these "sliders" don't know how to properly play AK from any position. So naturally the best alternative is to shove and play bingo. I don't necessarily disagree with this strategy. A weaker player wants to make large raises preflop to avoid getting outplayed on the flop. Others play smallball.For what it's worth I 3bet the first and flat the second.
hahaha
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For the record, my head is not up my ass.And flatting the 3-bet of the 2nd one is pretty horrible because you're never going to get paid on a A x x flop (unless villain has AQ which is unlikely) and villain has given himself the opportunity to fold 99-JJ, maybe QQ when we 4-bet shove. (FWIW I don't usually fold QQ+, AK preflop in $4.40's... eat me if you think that's bad). Folding is an option but flatting is lol.And LOL @ the 'weaker player' plug. At least you didn't include yourself in the group of people NOT with their heads up their asses.LOL @ 'sliders' too... I kind of like that term though.

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QUOTE (Dhall901 @ Saturday, July 18th, 2009, 12:59 AM) Gnshustler's the only one who doesn't have his head up his ass. Perhaps the real problem is the fact that these "sliders" don't know how to properly play AK from any position. So naturally the best alternative is to shove and play bingo. I don't necessarily disagree with this strategy. A weaker player wants to make large raises preflop to avoid getting outplayed on the flop. Others play smallball.For what it's worth I 3bet the first and flat the second.hahaha Daniel on Strategy ---> Home Run Hitters Vs. Small Ball Players ---> Paragragh 7.

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QUOTE (Dhall901 @ Saturday, July 18th, 2009, 12:59 AM) Gnshustler's the only one who doesn't have his head up his ass. Perhaps the real problem is the fact that these "sliders" don't know how to properly play AK from any position. So naturally the best alternative is to shove and play bingo. I don't necessarily disagree with this strategy. A weaker player wants to make large raises preflop to avoid getting outplayed on the flop. Others play smallball.For what it's worth I 3bet the first and flat the second.hahaha Daniel on Strategy ---> Home Run Hitters Vs. Small Ball Players ---> Paragragh 7.
lol @ insinuating i'm a weaker player b/c I know how to push edges.ty for the reference though, very useful reading
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Gnshustler's the only one who doesn't have his head up his ass. Perhaps the real problem is the fact that these "sliders" don't know how to properly play AK from any position. So naturally the best alternative is to shove and play bingo. I don't necessarily disagree with this strategy. A weaker player wants to make large raises preflop to avoid getting outplayed on the flop. Others play smallball.For what it's worth I 3bet the first and flat the second.
Okay, since you're such a good player I want to see some of your results that back this up, preferably online.I am cool with you coming in here and offering your opinion but when you start calling names, etc then that's just not cool. I need some sort of your results to back this type of thinking up please because I pretty much disagree with you in every other thread in tourney strat too.
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lol. dickwaving contest come around
No no, not on my end at least. I just want to see what he has to back up all this talk. It's pretty frustrating reading all his posts bashing me and other successful player's ideals without knowing what kind of player he is. I am simply questioning the validity of his info. & quoting DN's book does nothing for me - DN is talking about way deep stack $10-25k buy-in tourneys, not $4.40 180's with not nearly as deep of a structure.
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haha...nah I agree with you FadeCan we say that it could be related that the more skilled players do not post in the strat forum anymore because a lot of them just get bashed with this, "ooooo small ball" and we are referring to 4.40s and tournys with not nearly as good of structure. But anyways....I would much rather "spew" here than not exploit my edge.

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