Universal Health Care...

[DonkSlayer 1]

I wonder if health care price caps would do the trick?Price floors and caps are generally bad on a free market, especially a global one, because it prevents the most efficient delivery of goods and services to different persons with different buying/selling powers. However, health care is often more of a base need than a want, and healthcare is not something that is imported/exported.With some exceptions (and needing to deal with the issue that, in the current situation, we have nurse/doctor/assistant shortages), I think price caps would simply cause hospitals, offices and clinics to reach the max point of marginal return (or another goal that was different than just money) and stop growing/accepting patients, opening up room for other offices/hospitals to establish themselves as demand grows.Thoughts?

[LincolnK 1]

I wonder if health care price caps would do the trick?Price floors and caps are generally bad on a free market, especially a global one, because it prevents the most efficient delivery of goods and services to different persons with different buying/selling powers. However, health care is often more of a base need than a want, and healthcare is not something that is imported/exported.With some exceptions (and needing to deal with the issue that, in the current situation, we have nurse/doctor/assistant shortages), I think price caps would simply cause hospitals, offices and clinics to reach the max point of marginal return (or another goal that was different than just money) and stop growing/accepting patients, opening up room for other offices/hospitals to establish themselves as demand grows.Thoughts?

seems counter-productive. as long as patients are paying with other people's money, they won't be concerned about overall cost. plus they're going to be resistant to changing providers even if the service is lacking, due to the difficulty of finding a place that will see them.on provider side, they're going to do what they can to maximize profits. that means cutting their own cost wherever they can, probably to the point of taking shortcuts where they can get away with it.

[hblask 1]

I wonder if health care price caps would do the trick?Price floors and caps are generally bad on a free market, especially a global one, because it prevents the most efficient delivery of goods and services to different persons with different buying/selling powers. However, health care is often more of a base need than a want, and healthcare is not something that is imported/exported.With some exceptions (and needing to deal with the issue that, in the current situation, we have nurse/doctor/assistant shortages), I think price caps would simply cause hospitals, offices and clinics to reach the max point of marginal return (or another goal that was different than just money) and stop growing/accepting patients, opening up room for other offices/hospitals to establish themselves as demand grows.Thoughts?

People in the health care field have alternate choices of what to do with their lives. If you put a price cap on health services, those services will go away as the people providing them find more lucrative lines of work. The government cannot override the laws of supply and demand by legislative fiat, now or ever.Also, the notion that health care is not optional is wrong except in a few special cases. What percentage of medical care in the US is emergency room type stuff? And even for the other stuff, if I go in with a sore shoulder, is an MRI necessary or optional? Is an annual physical necessary or optional? Would 15 months be just as effective? Would a double dose of an OTC pain killer be just as effective as my $150 prescription? Health care is not one thing, it is a million little things, and a million little decisions, all balanced for price and efficiency.But when the balance between price and efficiency is broken, as it is thanks to a myriad of ridiculous laws, bad things happen. In our case, it's escalating prices. In Canada, it shoddy service and long waiting lists for urgent procedures.Restore the linkage between cost and benefit, and the problem solves itself. Your solution above is the exact opposite of that.

[Jeepster80125 0]

You just have issues with women, we all know it. But, so do I, so preach on, brother.

Only issues with stupid women who could control my life in some way. Stupid girls at the bar, I can deal with.from guinness and poker-"In a 4-8 game this afternoon, someone said they never win when they raise with AK so they don't raise with it. I said, everytime I sleep with a woman she ends up dumping me but I still sleep with women."Gary CarsonHenry, good post.

[DonkSlayer 1]

We need to seriously stop using the phrase "completely broken" unless you can think of another place in the world you would rather get into a car accident right now. Nowhere? Really? Big surprise.

This is easy: Anyone who can't pay for the post-hospital therapy and meds. ainec

[Zeatrix 0]

Now, I've been a bad boy and haven't read everything in this thread but...Reading DNs latest blogg made me appreciate our (Sweden's) healthcare. $86,000 for a test!!! I think you guys are missing the point. Some argue that since I'm paying for YOUR healthcare than bla bla...But "universal healthcare" is just a mandatory insurance. So for example car insurance, you are all paying so that if you get in an accident you will get some help. It's the same for healthcare, it's just the government insuring.Also, the reason why I feel comfortable with free healthcare (as we call it in Sweden) is that sure, people that treat their bodies like shit are more likely to use healthcare but it's no guarantee. A person like me that never drink, smoke or take drugs could very well get cancer that costs A LOT to treat while someone that treats his/her body badly won't. I sure wouldn't like having to pay $86,000 of my own money then!Anyways, I'm a huge fan of Magnus Betnér, a Swedish stand-up comedian who's one of the most known stand-up acts in Sweden. The reason I mention this is because he's got a really good clip on his English blogg where he mentions American healthcare. Go to http://betner.blogspot.com/ and watch his Youtube clipp from a gig in NY about a month ago. It's the clip at the very top labeled "Betnér on God". Oh, and if anyone cares, the reason I like him is because we basically share the same opinions about everything

[Jeepster80125 0]

Now, I've been a bad boy and haven't read everything in this thread but...Reading DNs latest blogg made me appreciate our (Sweden's) healthcare. $86,000 for a test!!! I think you guys are missing the point. Some argue that since I'm paying for YOUR healthcare than bla bla...But "universal healthcare" is just a mandatory insurance. So for example car insurance, you are all paying so that if you get in an accident you will get some help. It's the same for healthcare, it's just the government insuring.Also, the reason why I feel comfortable with free healthcare (as we call it in Sweden) is that sure, people that treat their bodies like shit are more likely to use healthcare but it's no guarantee. A person like me that never drink, smoke or take drugs could very well get cancer that costs A LOT to treat while someone that treats his/her body badly won't. I sure wouldn't like having to pay $86,000 of my own money then!Anyways, I'm a huge fan of Magnus Betnér, a Swedish stand-up comedian who's one of the most known stand-up acts in Sweden. The reason I mention this is because he's got a really good clip on his English blogg where he mentions American healthcare. Go to http://betner.blogspot.com/ and watch his Youtube clipp from a gig in NY about a month ago. It's the clip at the very top labeled "Betnér on God". Oh, and if anyone cares, the reason I like him is because we basically share the same opinions about everything

No.

[All_In 0]

Now, I've been a bad boy and haven't read everything in this thread but...Reading DNs latest blogg made me appreciate our (Sweden's) healthcare. $86,000 for a test!!! I think you guys are missing the point. Some argue that since I'm paying for YOUR healthcare than bla bla...But "universal healthcare" is just a mandatory insurance. So for example car insurance, you are all paying so that if you get in an accident you will get some help. It's the same for healthcare, it's just the government insuring.Also, the reason why I feel comfortable with free healthcare (as we call it in Sweden) is that sure, people that treat their bodies like shit are more likely to use healthcare but it's no guarantee. A person like me that never drink, smoke or take drugs could very well get cancer that costs A LOT to treat while someone that treats his/her body badly won't. I sure wouldn't like having to pay $86,000 of my own money then!Anyways, I'm a huge fan of Magnus Betnér, a Swedish stand-up comedian who's one of the most known stand-up acts in Sweden. The reason I mention this is because he's got a really good clip on his English blogg where he mentions American healthcare. Go to http://betner.blogspot.com/ and watch his Youtube clipp from a gig in NY about a month ago. It's the clip at the very top labeled "Betnér on God". Oh, and if anyone cares, the reason I like him is because we basically share the same opinions about everything

believe me, most americans think they do everything better than anyone else. you will not get much of an intellectual reply, just know-it-all one word replies.$86G for a test, LOL.

[hblask 1]

$86,000 for a test!!!

If you think this is too much, you have a great business opportunity by offering the same service for cheaper.If you think it is too little, then are you saying our system rules?If you think it is just right, what is the problem? That we didn't run the money through an inefficient bureaucracy first? That we didn't put that particular piece of care up to a vote, and instead left it to be an issue between doctor and patient?Or are you just trying to point out that $86,000 is a scary number? Or worse yet, pretend that the number would be lower by waving the Magic Wand of Government Bureaucracy at it?

[Zeatrix 0]

If you think this is too much, you have a great business opportunity by offering the same service for cheaper.If you think it is too little, then are you saying our system rules?If you think it is just right, what is the problem? That we didn't run the money through an inefficient bureaucracy first? That we didn't put that particular piece of care up to a vote, and instead left it to be an issue between doctor and patient?Or are you just trying to point out that $86,000 is a scary number? Or worse yet, pretend that the number would be lower by waving the Magic Wand of Government Bureaucracy at it?

No, I'm simply saying that I sure wouldn't be able to fork up 86 grand for a test on a whim. Would you? Would someone with a low income? I'm just saying that I'm glad that our government (our insurer per say) pays for it, if it's needed.

[hblask 1]

No, I'm simply saying that I sure wouldn't be able to fork up 86 grand for a test on a whim. Would you? Would someone with a low income? I'm just saying that I'm glad that our government (our insurer per say) pays for it, if it's needed.

Maybe if they didn't confiscate so much of your income for "free" health care, you could afford competitive, cheap coverage?At any rate, in the US when you go to the hospital, and get a big bill, they don't expect cash up front, you just have to agree that you will work out a payment. Then, when you are well again, you go to the hospital and explain how much you can pay. You fill out some forms, apply for state, local, and federal aid, and look at charities. You talk to your family and friends. Between those things, even $86,000 is doable for someone who is motivated. Yeah, it requires some effort, but that's the price you pay for slacking up to that point in your life.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Hblask, do you think it's better, worse, or no difference for our society if non-cosmetic healthcare provision and access is dictated by supply and demand, including copyright and patent laws?

[hblask 1]

Hblask, do you think it's better, worse, or no difference for our society if non-cosmetic healthcare provision and access is dictated by supply and demand, including copyright and patent laws?

Better obviously, as it works in cosmetic health care, and it works in every other industry. There doesn't seem to be a compelling reason why it wouldn't work for medical care.

[dizzlerock 0]

Didnt think this was right to say in the get well soon post. So heres a good spot I thought every one (not on this forum) used canada as an example why we should not have universal health coverage, but daniel is fying his mom back there to get taken care of.

[hblask 1]

Didnt think this was right to say in the get well soon post. So heres a good spot I thought every one (not on this forum) used canada as an example why we should not have universal health coverage, but daniel is fying his mom back there to get taken care of.

I'm assuming it's because 1) he found a hospital that doesn't have a 6 month waiting list to treat her, and 2) he gets to pretend it's free by going there.1 is not true for many Canadians, and 2 speaks for itself.(I haven't read the blog, so I'm just taking your word for it here).

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I'm assuming it's because 1) he found a hospital that doesn't have a 6 month waiting list to treat her, and 2) he gets to pretend it's free by going there.1 is not true for many Canadians, and 2 speaks for itself.(I haven't read the blog, so I'm just taking your word for it here).

Maybe you want to read the blog and then make your comment.The fact that his Mother is being flown home really isn't connected to the US health system other than the high costs but rather speaks to the problems that people face when their insurance will only cover certain things when out of country because of pre-existing conditions.And Henry, I know that you would rather give your left kidney then have a Gov't run health system but you over exaggerate the problems that we face in Canada as much as the Kool Aid drinkers who think it's the best thing ever gush about it and ignore the problems.Basically every country has it's strengths and weaknesses when it comes to health care.

[El Guapo 8]

Maybe you want to read the blog and then make your comment.The fact that his Mother is being flown home really isn't connected to the US health system other than the high costs but rather speaks to the problems that people face when their insurance will only cover certain things when out of country because of pre-existing conditions.And Henry, I know that you would rather give your left kidney then have a Gov't run health system but you over exaggerate the problems that we face in Canada as much as the Kool Aid drinkers who think it's the best thing ever gush about it and ignore the problems.Basically every country has it's strengths and weaknesses when it comes to health care.

IDK about that Bob. Our very own Jeff_354463636397 had a knee issue it took him months to get an MRI and months more for treatment, and it's still not taken care of. In fact at one point he was considering driving to US from Toronto and paying $1100 to get an MRI because he was just in pain and wanted to get some treatment going.

[hblask 1]

And Henry, I know that you would rather give your left kidney then have a Gov't run health system but you over exaggerate the problems that we face in Canada as much as the Kool Aid drinkers who think it's the best thing ever gush about it and ignore the problems.

I just read the statistics published by the Canadian government, and the delays and waiting lists would be totally unacceptable in the US. If your government is publishing false statistics about its own performance, then that issue should be addressed, but so far I've never heard anyone make that argument. In general, when governments publish self-evaluations, they stretch the truth to make themselves look better, so I doubt it is *less* of a problem than they themselves admit to.

[Sal Paradise 57]

I just read the statistics published by the Canadian government, and the delays and waiting lists would be totally unacceptable in the US. If your government is publishing false statistics about its own performance, then that issue should be addressed, but so far I've never heard anyone make that argument. In general, when governments publish self-evaluations, they stretch the truth to make themselves look better, so I doubt it is *less* of a problem than they themselves admit to.

but it's free!

[FCP Bob 1,312]

IDK about that Bob. Our very own Jeff_354463636397 had a knee issue it took him months to get an MRI and months more for treatment, and it's still not taken care of. In fact at one point he was considering driving to US from Toronto and paying $1100 to get an MRI because he was just in pain and wanted to get some treatment going.

The Canadian system's biggest weakness is in orthopedic care and the waits in many cases are horrible.There is no question that for a lot of conditions that aren't life threatening and in some cases things that if left untreated can be there is rationing and too long waiting lists.Just because there is a problem in one area though don't extrapolate that same degree of issue in other areas. For example urgent care for stroke and cardiac issues is very good. I can see my GP for a same day appointment if necessary. I have Colitis and I can see my Gastroenterologist on very short notice if needed.

[dizzlerock 0]

but it's free!

Nothings free, its paid for somehow probably extremly high taxes.

[Sal Paradise 57]

Nothings free, its paid for somehow probably extremly high taxes.

WHAAAAAA????

[hblask 1]

1. British Columbia [1]As can be seen by the data from British Columbia, waiting time varies by specialty. For example, the median wait time for orthopedic surgery was 9.3 weeks, whereas the median wait time for vascular surgery was 2.7 weeks. Similarly, the waiting time varies by procedure as well, as evidenced by the waiting times for endarterectomy (3.0 weeks), cataract surgery (9.4 weeks), gall bladder surgery (5.1 weeks), hip replacement (21.8 weeks), and knee replacement (28.3 weeks).Waiting lists will naturally be influenced by demand for a particular procedure, supply of physicians doing the procedure, availability of appropriate healthcare facilities to do the procedure, density of healthcare facilities in a given geographic region, etc.2. Manitoba [2]Manitoba's waiting time information for CT scans illustrates another important point: within provinces, there is great variability for waiting times between hospitals. While the median wait time for CT scans for all Manitoba was 10 weeks, the range was as low as 3 weeks to as high as 18 weeks, depending on the facility.[1] Government of British Columbia Health Media site. [2] Government of Manitoba Health Wait T ime Information Site. Online at http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waitlist/

[DonkSlayer 1]

Better obviously, as it works in cosmetic health care, and it works in every other industry. There doesn't seem to be a compelling reason why it wouldn't work for medical care.

What is your compelling reason as to the "obviously" you used in this sentence? Does it seem to you that the more American citizens are experiencing a higher level of average care in our current system than say in Britain's system?Do you think think the level of productivity is higher for a healthy low-wage worker or a sick one? Do you think it's the same whether or not that same worker can have cosmetic surgery or not? Do you think sick people vote as often as healthy people?

[DonkSlayer 1]

1. British Columbia [1]As can be seen by the data from British Columbia, waiting time varies by specialty. For example, the median wait time for orthopedic surgery was 9.3 weeks, whereas the median wait time for vascular surgery was 2.7 weeks. Similarly, the waiting time varies by procedure as well, as evidenced by the waiting times for endarterectomy (3.0 weeks), cataract surgery (9.4 weeks), gall bladder surgery (5.1 weeks), hip replacement (21.8 weeks), and knee replacement (28.3 weeks).Waiting lists will naturally be influenced by demand for a particular procedure, supply of physicians doing the procedure, availability of appropriate healthcare facilities to do the procedure, density of healthcare facilities in a given geographic region, etc.2. Manitoba [2]Manitoba's waiting time information for CT scans illustrates another important point: within provinces, there is great variability for waiting times between hospitals. While the median wait time for CT scans for all Manitoba was 10 weeks, the range was as low as 3 weeks to as high as 18 weeks, depending on the facility.[1] Government of British Columbia Health Media site. [2] Government of Manitoba Health Wait T ime Information Site. Online at http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waitlist/

Hblask, don't you think things like knee and hip replacement are needs in the eye of the beholder, just like your earlier post on whether someone need an Rx or just a "heavy" dose of OTC painkillers?If the wait times are the same for say, emergency repair of a leg that was split in two from a car accident, I'll concede the point.