Suited Slick

[RDog 0]

i don't think the two cases are comparable tbh. this isn't a hospital or a football field.i understand you successfully play midstakes and sell hoodies for a living. think it's totally cool that you help people out and take time to post in 10NL threads. i just think that you are arrogant and constantly throw out the experience card. well i'm experienced at low stakes NL. i've beaten $25-100NL for years. i have a full time job and play on eves and wkds and use the money to supplement my income and have no intention of moving up cause the supplement is fine. not saying i could beat ur limits at first but poker is a lifelong learning experience. i just think you could be a great addition to this forum if you drop the holier than though attitude. maybe take a page from mark?i think ur adivce does/can speak for itself

Oh I see, so someone is only a great addition to this forum if and only if they conform to those personalities that YOU personally approve of? It doesn't take very long to figure out that Mark and I are completely different. I'm sure there are a ton of people that like his "style" better than mine. Mark is a super nice guy and has much more patience than I do. I've never disagreed that I have plenty of flaws. I readily admit them often. At the same time, even though I may not be overtly nice to people that don't necessarily deserve it, I give out a ton of advice to a lot of people on this forum. Do I have to put a bow on top for that to be considered "nice"? Also, where exactly have I been holier than though?

[BellaireDrew 2]

I think that's a personality issue. Most people don't like being disrespected, I'd rather have Mikey (syous), Snamuh, and Rdog posting than not posting. Those people post less because of attacks.Mark, Cobalt, and I'm sure I'm missing many others have different personalities where it doesn't bother or affect them either way. But the forum would be better to have all those people than just the super laid back ones.

thistskillz, everything you have posted in this thread has been spot on

[jmbreslin 0]

If you ship preflop and are called, then you traded $8.90 for 48% of a $19 pot, which is $9.27. That's a good trade, so with this range, you should flip.

Provided you give him that wide a range. Any tighter, which I think is the case, and the push becomes -ev, no?

If you're folding because you think you're too much of a dog to his range, that's reasonable. If you're folding because you're waiting for a better spot, I think you should re-examine that thought process.

The two are connected for me: I'd rather wait for a better spot because I think I'm too much of a dog to his range.

[babylondonks 5]

Provided you give him that wide a range. Any tighter, which I think is the case, and the push becomes -ev, no?The two are connected for me: I'd rather wait for a better spot because I think I'm too much of a dog to his range.

Bingo, but you were asking that if we were flipping why is it good to shove. And if we are flipping, it would be a good shove. However I don't think villains range is anywhere near that wide and that QQ/AK is basically the bottom of it.Tskillz owned this thread so hard, I want his babies.

[krup24 0]

I think that's a personality issue. Most people don't like being disrespected, I'd rather have Mikey (syous), Snamuh, and Rdog posting than not posting. Those people post less because of attacks.Mark, Cobalt, and I'm sure I'm missing many others have different personalities where it doesn't bother or affect them either way. But the forum would be better to have all those people than just the super laid back ones.

agree 100% ur still not catching my drift here. let me just sum it up as simple as i can. we used to get 4-5 page threads discussing a hand without this bullshit. disagreeing and thinking ur right is part of what makes this a great place. i learn something or make myself think here on a daily basis. we've had tons of arguments about hands in the past and never did it turn into this shit. i've seen this way too much here lately. yes i can easily admit rdog or acid are way more advanced poker wise than me but the difference is that attacks never turned personal in the past. acid or jordan could debate like no other. sure they could make you feel stupid and make you say damn i get it now but they didn't need an army to back them or get their point across. their advice did that. and their respect was earned and not demanded.if u look at the first four pages of this thread i counted 10 people that said to shove. other than a QFT the only person's post that was quoted and attacked was NoB's. And his first post hardly warranted it, after that i'm sure he felt obligated to defend himself although it was in poor taste. What about the other 10 who said to shove? you see the funny thing about poker is sometimes it just doesn't matter what you do cause this hand you could easily shove or fold and honestly debates can be made for either situation being +EV.

[tskillz187 0]

we used to get 4-5 page threads discussing a hand without this bullshit. disagreeing and thinking ur right is part of what makes this a great place. i learn something or make myself think here on a daily basis. we've had tons of arguments about hands in the past and never did it turn into this shit. i've seen this way too much here lately.

I think the past that you remember is more because they were above you pokerwise and you tried to learn through them (I know I did). I can't think of specific hands, but if we dug back 18 months ago, I'm sure the discussion wasn't as deep as we/they thought it was at the time. I mean 18 months ago Acid was an engineer, and still not on a stake from Jordan, the very stake in which he was breakeven with rakeback over a few months at 1-2nl 6 max! We didn't even know what the 20/17/3 stats meant at the time, most of us were live players trying to transition. But we were all learning from those discussions at the same time. Now a lot of people are better and those discussions don't need to take so long, on what's right/wrong but more how you approach the situation and why your decisions change based on bet sizing/board texture/villain.

yes i can easily admit rdog or acid are way more advanced poker wise than me but the difference is that attacks never turned personal in the past. acid or jordan could debate like no other. sure they could make you feel stupid and make you say damn i get it now but they didn't need an army to back them or get their point across. their advice did that. and their respect was earned and not demanded.if u look at the first four pages of this thread i counted 10 people that said to shove. other than a QFT the only person's post that was quoted and attacked was NoB's. And his first post hardly warranted it, after that i'm sure he felt obligated to defend himself although it was in poor taste. What about the other 10 who said to shove? you see the funny thing about poker is sometimes it just doesn't matter what you do cause this hand you could easily shove or fold and honestly debates can be made for either situation being +EV.

There's a few parts I want to address from this part. First off, it's not like to start a response or debate with these people you need to say "you're better than me I respect you" it's just in the tone that you come across. Being argumentative for the sake of argument happens way too often. I used to do it all the time, I was way more concerned with being right (whether to validate it to myself, or to try and build/attain/keep rep in the strat forum as someone that was somewhat competent) than at trying to learn why good players thought differently than I did. It's just mindblowing to me how often good information is given out and people don't digest it because they are looking through the lens of how to defend their play.Secondly the army is just a byproduct of a lot of people being frustrated and a lot of good players coming in to discuss the hand. I never noticed a post (and don't think it took place) that asked for support or "back up" in this thread. I never attacked Nobbir, I like him, hes a long time BAWer which is/was my fav thread ever. I think the attacks are stupid and petty. But I think NoBbir could absolutely take these opportunities to learn more from Rdog, Acid, Snamuh and others when they post. He's been in the same type of games for some time and I think the post Rdog made about people thinking they crush their levels etc resonates a lot there, I thought that exact way anyways. I've pleaded with him (NoBbir) to get pt3 or hem and really try to take his game to the next level, but he doesn't seem interested. As for the hand in this thread I don't even remember it! I don't even think it's that important. I'd probably fold, but calling is really close like you said. Those decision don't matter, it's the thought process behind them. I actually think playing hands, at least up to what I'm playing right now ($100 max) isn't that important. It's more about understanding concepts/villains, I make mistakes in hands constantly where I choose a sub-optimal line and it's just not that important right now. It's more important to critically think about the decisions you are making and try to piece things together, at least from what I've seen.Sorry this got long and fragmented and I sound preachy even though I'm still very much developing my game, I'm in no way saying I'm the type of players that people should be digesting info from, I just know who they are.

[krup24 0]

^^^^^couldn't agree more. now u have officially owned this thread. wp.

[RDog 0]

yes i can easily admit rdog or acid are way more advanced poker wise than me but the difference is that attacks never turned personal in the past. acid or jordan could debate like no other. sure they could make you feel stupid and make you say damn i get it now but they didn't need an army to back them or get their point across. their advice did that. and their respect was earned and not demanded.

So let me get this straight.....you actually think that I had people come to this thread to defend me? LOL? I can't control what other people say. So now I need to apologize for how other people respond here just because they might happen to have some respect for me and what I have to say? And as for me needing backup, LOL. Pretty sure I can defend myself, thank you very much. Seriously, WTF???

[krup24 0]

So let me get this straight.....you actually think that I had people come to this thread to defend me? LOL? I can't control what other people say. So now I need to apologize for how other people respond here just because they might happen to have some respect for me and what I have to say? And as for me needing backup, LOL. Pretty sure I can defend myself, thank you very much. Seriously, WTF???

no i don't think u requested or needed backup. no i don't think and haven't requested an apology from u. LOL. i'm glad you pointed out that people have respect for you cause i didn't know that. just stating what i observed if that's still allowed?Seriously, you need to relax. i've hardly done anything remotely close to a personal attack on you.

[RDog 0]

no i don't think u requested or needed backup. no i don't think and haven't requested an apology from u. LOL. i'm glad you pointed out that people have respect for you cause i didn't know that. just stating what i observed if that's still allowed?Seriously, you need to relax. i've hardly done anything remotely close to a personal attack on you.

Ah, telling me on 2 different occasions that you want me to act like someone else isn't an attack on me. And saying that I need an army to back me up isn't an attack on me. Glad we got that straight.

[mtdesmoines 3]

zach. kill this thread.

[krup24 0]

Ah, telling me on 2 different occasions that you want me to act like someone else isn't an attack on me. And saying that I need an army to back me up isn't an attack on me. Glad we got that straight.

never said u should act like someone else. you are what u are. i just stated there are better ways to get your point across. i myself stated what you do for people and the advice you give on 2 occasions. it's like you read snipets of a response and make what you want out of it. poor wording/stating of my point about an army. i was mainly reliving the better days of this forum where even though a group of people agreed/disagreed it never turned into a free for all. ok so i'll state this one more time. you (RDog) know how to play poker, successfully play midstakes NLE for a living, give good advice, help numerous posters, are arrogant, have poor post reading skills, and do not need an army to back you up.

[krup24 0]

zach. kill this thread.

fck that

[NoBBiR 0]

Also, whether you like it or not this game is about respect. And respect comes with putting in the hours and the grind and YES, beating whatever limits you are playing. Respect doesn't come from some punk kid that can put words together to make himself sound smart but for some reason just can't beat those limits that he is so "positive" he knows how to beat.

Lol. I don't respect you for beating 25 and 50nl. Sorry, is that a bad thing? The first time I was every actually rolled for 10nl I beat it in a month (September). I moved up to 25, made 6bi's and quit because I needed money for the holidays. Does that mean I'm just a punk kid because I'm not as old as you, or possibly as well off to have extra money to play poker with? Sorry I don't have the money to play poker as much as everyone else. Sorry I'm a broke college kid working on his education more than I'm working on my poker game. But it doesn't make me anymore incapable of having a valid opinion. You expect me to respect you because you're a winning player over your life. That's fine, and I'm certainly not attacking you, but it doesn't go both ways. I don't call you out on being a arrogant retard, when you don't condescend me for basically no reason whatsoever other than that I disagreed with you. I shouldn't have even bothered after you started acting that way because I figured it would just turn into a dick size competition, but sometimes I have too much faith in humanity I suppose.

I also love how NoBB just goes ahead and completely ignores a great post by tskillz.

Actually I didn't. However, I disagree with it. David sort of echoed why I do.

Sooo...I still think a ship PF or on the flop is the correct move. Wait, am I in the right thread?!But seriously, I really think that RDog has said a lot of good stuff, but he also admits that he doesn't really know the play of $10NL and states that you can play this hand a few different ways, so I don't know why we are making him out to be the bad guy in this. I think Nobb is just taking it the wrong way and believes its a personal attack.

No, I took the 15 LOL's to me questioning him and him acting like beating 25 and 50nl mean he's right and I'm wrong to be personal attacks.

To go with that, I really agree with Tskillz post and I think that is the main reason the better players who are beating higher stakes do not post in the strat forum anymore. When they try to make a point, or make a post that seems very critical, many people just assume that they are being arrogant for having more money and being able to make a living of poker. Where actually, they know that tough love and being completely honest with whoever is asking about a hand get them much further than trying to be nice about it (I know this personally, b/c I have definitely posted hands that I played horrendous and was told about it).

No, I never once said anything about him being arrogant until he posted "I guess he doesn't know how long I've beaten 25 and 50 NL, LOL." If that isn't the undeserved definition of arrogance, I don't know what is. Sure that's great, but personally I think Hellmuth is a moron, but he's rich and beats higher stakes. That doesn't make him right all of the time (or hardly ever when it comes to poker strategy).

This might have some merit if you didn't make him out to be some innocent bystander in this whole process and I attacked him. Seems to me it was the other way around. People didn't jump all over him (including myself) until he rightfully deserved it.

Does rightfully deserve it mean that I questioned you and then you turned around and condescended me for no reason? Because that's all I remember? Sorry, I wasn't aware of who you were so I said you were exploitable. Sure, if you've beaten 25 and 50 or whatever (this isn't sarcasm), you're probably not super exploitable, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some parts of your game that are. I think you would agree? Therefore, it's illogical to just condescend me when I disagree with you and think that anything anyone says is wrong if you disagree. Personally, I don't think I would still post anything constructive here if I had nothing left to learn from anyone else and just thought I was doing it for the good of others. Sure that may seem bad, but if you're not capable of learning or even question yourself based on what others say, than you really do more harm than good in debates. I don't think that you should be able to be a douche and avoid discussion because of you beat 25 and 50nl before and then turn it on me after I don't take kindly to you being condscending just 'because.'

And for those that didn't like my reaction. Tell me how you would feel if you had been doing your job for quite some time and a 19 year old kid walks in and starts telling you what an idiot you are. How exactly would you react? Well you know what, this is my job. I'm not going to let someone with 1/50th the experience, credentials and results talk to me like I just walked in off the street yesterday to start my job. And if you say you would then you are either a liar or a pussy.

So you'd rather be a prick than have reasonable discussion? I never came in and started telling you how much of an idiot you were, I came in, said something, you disagreed, I re-disagreed, and then you turned it into a moronathon because you're too childish to just have reasonable discussion without reverting to adolescence. And I guess being a 19 year old 'kid' makes me less worthy to debate you? I suppose if I was 45 it would be fine with you?

So let me get this straight.....you actually think that I had people come to this thread to defend me? LOL? I can't control what other people say. So now I need to apologize for how other people respond here just because they might happen to have some respect for me and what I have to say? And as for me needing backup, LOL. Pretty sure I can defend myself, thank you very much. Seriously, WTF???

no i don't think u requested or needed backup. no i don't think and haven't requested an apology from u. LOL. i'm glad you pointed out that people have respect for you cause i didn't know that. just stating what i observed if that's still allowed?Seriously, you need to relax. i've hardly done anything remotely close to a personal attack on you.

Oh, look, now you've said something he doesn't like. Don't forget to not question his awesomeness in the future because he's got low stakes results and staking low stakes players or whatever. You questioning that is clearly an attack on his person.

[RDog 0]

zach. kill this thread.

No worries. I will move along and leave the strat forum to you guys. Pretty clear this is broken down into 2 groups. Those of you that post primarily in strat and don't want me here and the Challenge Thread people that I will talk to anyways. Rather be somewhere where I don't have to constantly defend myself because people take my not wanting to put up with bs and passive aggressiveness as arrogance. Good luck to all of you.

[RDog 0]

zach. kill this thread.

Double post.

[NoBBiR 0]

Secondly the army is just a byproduct of a lot of people being frustrated and a lot of good players coming in to discuss the hand. I never noticed a post (and don't think it took place) that asked for support or "back up" in this thread. I never attacked Nobbir, I like him, hes a long time BAWer which is/was my fav thread ever. I think the attacks are stupid and petty. But I think NoBbir could absolutely take these opportunities to learn more from Rdog, Acid, Snamuh and others when they post. He's been in the same type of games for some time and I think the post Rdog made about people thinking they crush their levels etc resonates a lot there, I thought that exact way anyways. I've pleaded with him (NoBbir) to get pt3 or hem and really try to take his game to the next level, but he doesn't seem interested.

I like you too Eagles suck though.And believe me, I do take things that people say and learn from them. I'm a better play than I have ever been and the main reasons for that are this forum and certain specific people in it. I learned very early on what posters here I respect and which ones I really didn't, and specifically, the reasons I respected them. It's not results (just like results don't matter hand-to-hand, they really don't matter much overall. You could be the most unlucky poker player and be broke, or you could be Jamie Gold), it's the validity of their strategy mixed with their attitude. I've never seen Acid get into a debate before and say, 'check it out, I beat 1000nl live like nobodies business.' Because that is a douchebag-esque thing to say.And I know, many people have pleaded with me to get PT and other things, and I know I occasionally come off uninterested, but I'm not. Sorry if I came off that way. But I'm broke. I spend whatever money I get on food, gas and school (not to mention I haven't even been Christmas shopping yet). Dropping 100 bucks on PT is not really in my mind economically. Sure it'd be great, but I'd really have to focus fully on poker to be able to weight that towards reasonable, and I just can't.

[NoBBiR 0]

Doubleaments.

[NoBBiR 0]

No worries. I will move along and leave the strat forum to you guys. Pretty clear this is broken down into 2 groups. Those of you that post primarily in strat and don't want me here and the Challenge Thread people that I will talk to anyways. Rather be somewhere where I don't have to constantly defend myself because people take my not wanting to put up with bs and passive aggressiveness as arrogance. Good luck to all of you.

Yeah, we don't want you here. You figured us out. It's a conspiracy top get rid of you. Right.Give me a break.

[krup24 0]

No worries. I will move along and leave the strat forum to you guys. Pretty clear this is broken down into 2 groups. Those of you that post primarily in strat and don't want me here and the Challenge Thread people that I will talk to anyways. Rather be somewhere where I don't have to constantly defend myself because people take my not wanting to put up with bs and passive aggressiveness as arrogance. Good luck to all of you.

i haven't seen one other thread where u had to "defend" yourselfseriously there aren't 2 groups there is one. your not posting here because of this would be sad.

[babylondonks 5]

Oh my. Hopefully a Jeff post can save this thread

[cubsfan44 0]

Oh my. Hopefully a Jeff post can save this thread

Meh. I pretty much agree with NoBBiR on all accounts here. Barry Sanders of poker? I mean seriously? Who says shit like that?

[RDog 0]

Meh. I pretty much agree with NoBBiR on all accounts here. Barry Sanders of poker? I mean seriously? Who says shit like that?

**** You!!!!

[Deftones150 0]

Seriously, full stack shove pfr is AA/KK at least 90% of the time here. I've seen some people put it as low as 88 but never as a full stack. I've also rarely seen someone shove in AK. Maybe 30k hands isn't enough at 10NL but I've learned to fold those spots with no reads. Results aside definately make a note on the guy.Steelers are vastly superior the cowboys *sigh

[David_Nicoson 1]

Provided you give him that wide a range. Any tighter, which I think is the case, and the push becomes -ev, no?

Yeah, less than ~47% and we should fold.

The two are connected for me: I'd rather wait for a better spot because I think I'm too much of a dog to his range.

I think you're connecting them as mutually exclusive alternatives when you use the word "wait". If we're a big enough dog that raising or calling all-in is a mistake, then we should fold even if this is the last hand of poker we'll ever play. We're not waiting for anything; we're just declining a losing proposition.