Deep Stacks, But Small Bets And I'm Lost

[Royal_Tour 0]

1/2NLUTG 600 - likes to play lots of flopsHero 600 Villain 500 - is a small stakes LHE player, who occasionally plays NL, and over values mediocre hands.hero is BB with 8d,10dUTG limp, MP limp, 1 fold, villain raise to 12. 2 folds, C/O call. button fold, sb fold. hero call. UTG call.(pot 60ish 4 players)flop Ad, 8c, Jdhero check, UTG bet 20, villain call, c/o fold, hero callturn 3hhero check, UTG bet 25, villain call, hero call.river 8shero?what line is best? lead out? or check /call? I assume i'm ahead but slightly lost in this hand

[CBrownOSU04 0]

fold preflop.....no really bet like 80 and get a crying call from an ace...if you have a good read on the table which it doesn't seem like you do sense you don't know what to then i would try making a bet of like 150+ to make them think you missed a flush draw and bluffing

[Royal_Tour 0]

fold preflop.....no really bet like 80 and get a crying call from an ace...if you have a good read on the table which it doesn't seem like you do sense you don't know what to then i would try making a bet of like 150+ to make them think you missed a flush draw and bluffing

i have a read on the table, just kinda lost in this specific hand.also, Please let this post be the last Fold preflop post for this hand.i really dont care if i'm OOP with suited connectors. I'm up against two other big stacks and am very confident in my play. However a little concerned on what I should do here.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I agree with the call preflop with deep stacks and the call in between. (Also, unless one of the EP players really likes to limp/raise, we're very likely to see the flop for this price, unlike if we're calling from EP.)If the villain would raise the flop with AK, then I lead into them for 30. If not, I try to check-raise the flop.As played, I check-raise the turn. It's a big pot already, nobody seems to want it, we stand to benefit from eliminating a bigger flush draw, and we have a lot of outs if someone actually does call us.After calling on both streets, I lead when I hit the trip eights. Bet the pot.

[waylander11 0]

I agree with the call preflop with deep stacks and the call in between. (Also, unless one of the EP players really likes to limp/raise, we're very likely to see the flop for this price, unlike if we're calling from EP.)If the villain would raise the flop with AK, then I lead into them for 30. If not, I try to check-raise the flop.As played, I check-raise the turn. It's a big pot already, nobody seems to want it, we stand to benefit from eliminating a bigger flush draw, and we have a lot of outs if someone actually does call us.After calling on both streets, I lead when I hit the trip eights. Bet the pot.

Do you really want to bet 200 into that pot? If UTG or villain has a weak ace i can't see them calling without a better hand. Plus theres always the chance that one of them has something weird that beats us. I think 80 is better, i can see a call from UTG or villain if we bet 80. I don't think we can check-call because i can't see UTG or villain betting very much and checkraising seems a little dangerous. Thoughts?

[David_Nicoson 1]

Do you really want to bet 200 into that pot? If UTG or villain has a weak ace i can't see them calling without a better hand.

i would try making a bet of like 150+ to make them think you missed a flush draw and bluffing

[waylander11 0]

So you're telling me that the way the hand played out, you would call 150-200 with A 10, AQ, AK if you were UTG or villain? I think its really likely that they can't even beat the jack kicker on the board and unless hero has a pretty loose image not too many people are going to call a pot sized bet with a naked ace. AK, AJ and AQ have to be raising more or reraising before the river. My guess is that UTG has something along the lines of A5-A10 and villain has something like 9 10. Hero played the hand exactly like a passive player would play his hand and i think its too likely for him to have an 8 for anyone to call thinking its a bluff.

[David_Nicoson 1]

So you're telling me that the way the hand played out, you would call 150-200 with A 10, AQ, AK if you were UTG or villain? I think its really likely that they can't even beat the jack kicker on the board and unless hero has a pretty loose image not too many people are going to call a pot sized bet with a naked ace. AK, AJ and AQ have to be raising more or reraising before the river. My guess is that UTG has something along the lines of A5-A10 and villain has something like 9 10. Hero played the hand exactly like a passive player would play his hand and i think its too likely for him to have an 8 for anyone to call thinking its a bluff.

If I were possessed by a demon of loose passiveness and showed up with a weak ace on the river, I would strongly consider calling the bet in the villain's shoes, even if a priest exorcised said demon at the end. I certainly wouldn't call 80 twice as often as 160.

[Moneyball16 0]

If you dont think you would have enough value to c/r this hand and would only c/c I would rather lead out. Leading out allows you to name the price and there is no risk of it getting checked behind.

[Snamuh 0]

So you're telling me that the way the hand played out, you would call 150-200 with A 10, AQ, AK if you were UTG or villain? I think its really likely that they can't even beat the jack kicker on the board and unless hero has a pretty loose image not too many people are going to call a pot sized bet with a naked ace. AK, AJ and AQ have to be raising more or reraising before the river. My guess is that UTG has something along the lines of A5-A10 and villain has something like 9 10. Hero played the hand exactly like a passive player would play his hand and i think its too likely for him to have an 8 for anyone to call thinking its a bluff.

Hero even indicated villain overvalues mediocre hands. I lead out for 3/4 pot and expect to get called by a weak ace.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Preflop is fine. Why are you not playing this hand faster? You almost certainly have a rather large equity edge here unless you're up against a bigger FD and a better made hand. If you're not playing a combo draw fast, what are you playing fast?I also pot the river.

[dscoot 0]

since these guys are only going 20 and 25 on flop and turn, u gotta bet in that range for them to call on the river as they dont seem likely to call any big bets. so either lead out with like 25 or so, or if u think they will bet another 25 w their ace then check - min raise.oh yeah and your post title is a little bit worriesome. low limit casino games are loaded with people who make these 25 dollar bets into 50, and even 100 dollar pots so u better get used to playing vs this

[krup24 0]

Being that we are up against 2 villian i bet a about 60-75% of the pot and hope both villians call.

[tskillz187 0]

Pre-flop I usually fold, but based on overvaluing mid-hands and being deep call is more than fine.Flop I try to do whatever gets a lot of money in but also gives me fold equity. I think the best line is probably B/3B for this, C/R is okay, check/call is too passive, IMO.Turn, well since I didn't get aggro on the flop I'm basically hoping to hit my hand now, I'll likely check/call here check/raising isn't horrible if you think they are weak, but given that LHE player overvalues weak hands I'd stay away from it now.River - Bingo! That's probably the best card in the deck for us. No draw made it, and the 8 is unlikley to have hit anyone else, it looks like a very safe card. I lead for 3/4 pot and I'd probably call an all in expecting to see AK, AQ, or AJ more often than J8, set, or A8.

[mtdesmoines 3]

1/2NLUTG 600 - likes to play lots of flopsHero 600 Villain 500 - is a small stakes LHE player, who occasionally plays NL, and over values mediocre hands.hero is BB with 8d,10dUTG limp, MP limp, 1 fold, villain raise to 12. 2 folds, C/O call. button fold, sb fold. hero call. UTG call.(pot 60ish 4 players)flop Ad, 8c, Jdhero check, UTG bet 20, villain call, c/o fold, hero callturn 3hhero check, UTG bet 25, villain call, hero call.river 8shero?what line is best? lead out? or check /call? I assume i'm ahead but slightly lost in this hand

I might check-raise that flop if the bet is only $20. If we still have a crowd on the turn, I might check-call it. At the river, I lead out. Any A is going to call a pretty good sized bet here.

[NoBBiR 0]

Preflop is fine. Why are you not playing this hand faster? You almost certainly have a rather large equity edge here unless you're up against a bigger FD and a better made hand. If you're not playing a combo draw fast, what are you playing fast?I also pot the river.

I dunno. I hate playing Pair+Flush combo draws fast against idiots who are liable to call me down with TPNK. I prefer to play them fast against loose aggressive players because I feel that my fold equity goes way up. I realize that getting as much in as possible is good because we're more likely to get all of the money in as a favorite, but it's a small favorite most of the time. I don't mind passive playing him when you think you hit he's going to pay off a pot bet on the river, which I think accord to the read that he's going to do here pretty often.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Preflop is fine. Why are you not playing this hand faster? You almost certainly have a rather large equity edge here unless you're up against a bigger FD and a better made hand. If you're not playing a combo draw fast, what are you playing fast?I also pot the river.

usually i'll play top pair+FD fast, or sometimes a Nut FD + inside nut straight, I guess in a logical sense though, I'd have more outs with bottom pair +FD than i would with TP with FD, since more often than not, its TP or better thats betting into me.

[Sheiky 0]

I would raise the flop once the second person calls because you pretty much always have an equity edge and calling doesn't bring more money in the pot from overcalls.I would lead the river, the betting so far has been pretty weak so i'd bet about 60% of the pot and pray for callers.

[Acid_Knight 2]

usually i'll play top pair+FD fast, or sometimes a Nut FD + inside nut straight, I guess in a logical sense though, I'd have more outs with bottom pair +FD than i would with TP with FD, since more often than not, its TP or better thats betting into me.

Top pair and FD isn't any different than 2nd or 3rd pair and a FD if you put your opponent on only one pair. Ok, I know it's a little different, but for arguments sake, it's the same.Their bets are weak. If I thought one had a set, I'd play it slower. You should have a ton of FE and you should like never play a combo draw this slowly.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Check-raise flop please.Lead out on the river, it looks like a busted FD... which it sorta is... I say 3/4 of the pot.

[Zach6668 513]

Top pair and FD isn't any different than 2nd or 3rd pair and a FD if you put your opponent on only one pair. Ok, I know it's a little different, but for arguments sake, it's the same.Their bets are weak. If I thought one had a set, I'd play it slower. You should have a ton of FE and you should like never play a combo draw this slowly.

Sure it is.On an AcQh5h board, we have Ah6h vs AdKd, for example, we've got 45.455% equity.Now switch it up a bit, AhQc5h, with Qh7h vs AdKd, we've got 49.293% equity.Meh, it's only 4%, but it makes a difference to our overall EV of playing fast.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Sure it is.On an AcQh5h board, we have Ah6h vs AdKd, for example, we've got 45.455% equity.Now switch it up a bit, AhQc5h, with Qh7h vs AdKd, we've got 49.293% equity.Meh, it's only 4%, but it makes a difference to our overall EV of playing fast.

I went through the same thought process.

1. No way AK. It's more out!
2. Bleh, it's only 4%.
3. Maybe there's a different way to express this makes it look like it matters.

It's 1.2 : 1 vs. 1.03 : 1, FWIW.If we put the whole 468 in on the flop, how much do we be lose (speaking marginally):top pair + flush draw vs. better top pair:468 - (0.45455)(468)(2) = $42.54middle pair + flush draw vs. top pair:468 - (0.49293)(468)(2) = $6.62for a difference of $35.92. If we thought we were in a nearly break-even situation, then this would be a big deal. That is, our bluff has to work much more often in the top pair case. At least, that's how I would spin it if I were arguing this in court. The chance that TPTK snaps us off for all that on the flop seems pretty small. We're much more likely to face a set or two-pair if we really stack off, so it turns out to be irrelevant. If there were two raises before the flop, I think it matters (because it's much more reasonable for the villain to stack off with one pair) a lot. Here, not so much.

Edited December 2, 2007 by David_Nicoson