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Bay 101 ..hand That Bugged Me


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Good input.
It sent out a brief and clear message that your initial response to his post had the general pompous tone that most of the "I'm too good for this" 2+2'ers use when they answer some noob. Then he went on to read that your reasoning was pretty much way off. As for your very simple series of questions. Here is what I think:Does villain, or does he not, make this play with AK, AQ, JJ and TT? Or just AA and KK? Does he reraise pf with 99, 88 or 98?We don't know. He hasn't reraised preflop at all this tourney..all we know is that he's been around poker way before it was huge and his aggression has mostly been post flop. Do all the times you pick off a cb with a c/r outweigh the times you are beat?essentially, no.. say you pick off the c-bet with a c/r 50% of the time, then that 50% of the time you're winning 5200 and your stack will be at 23k or so, the other 50% of the time it'll be at around 10k, if you check fold you're still somewhere around 16.5k , at this point in the tourney the chips you lose by winning the hand far outweigh the significance of the chips you win by pushing him out on the flop. Basically, you can do just as much playing with 16k than with 23k but you can't really keep playing too many hands with 10k, if I think I'm good enough to fold this hand and still chip back up by seeing cheap flops then I should probably just fold. That being said, had someone told me "in 1 hr your table will include Gus, Alahei, Goehring, Muller, Thaler and Binger" I might have taken a different approach to the hand, if I had seen the hands villian played after I folded QQ, then too might I have just called the flop. In this case, nothing was known so I think folding is actually correct, in theory. Giving your loose image, can a good player with AK or TT or JJ think he's still ahead of you on the turn, if you called the flop and checked the turn, and bet at you again?Not really, most good players check behind if they think they're ahead with something that marginal...on the other hand a good player CAN and probably will put me on QQ and try and rep AA with something like AK, or total rags. Can you not c/r here, and fold and still play effectively with over 50 big blinds?this is not an online tourney..50bb's is okay but not what you want to have at any point in day 1. Not the way these guys run over you..Does check/calling define anything? Or does it just give a worse hand a free two-outer..or worse, a free six outer? And, by checking the turn, another free shot? Not to mention that if you are behind, and you do suckout, you need to extract another 10k+ out of him to make the play profitable. that's just way wrong, in theory and logically, I don't really wan't to get into it though. Does a preflop re-reraise narrow villain's range?who cares? why would I wan't to commit 5k more preflop to win 1600 and not define his hand at all....I think he's almost NEVER 4 bet shoving AA and KK here, so when he smooth calls then I'm 100% screwed, and now I have the lead in a big pot without even seeing a flop yet..no thank you...also, what if he decides to smooth call with AK? And what if he 4 bet shoves on me? even if I know he's almost never doing it with AA or KK I can't call, because I have 50bb's + left and I can for sure pick a better spot. So imo, 3 betting pre is about the worst you can do, and I think the other 3 options are very close, and they're all definately arguable..I think folding might be the best considering it is a 10k tourney with 20k stacks and 1 hr levels, I think check/calling is a close 2nd but at the same time it's the only one that can win us the hand with relative safety.. it can also spew 2200 when we get bluffed on the turn or v-bet on the river (cuz once he checks the turn we have to call the river). I think c/r'ing is the way that will MOST likely win us the hand but that's like saying "open shoving 25bb's with A10 is the best way to steal the blinds"... sure it is, but it isn't correct because its too much to risk for too little to gain. Does a flop lead not define villain's hand...or will he raise you with all the same hands he would have cb with?no.... most likely yes.And yes, if I'm check folding that flop but calling a preflop raise I'm mostly playing for set value, I don't think I'd fold any pair preflop in that situation, I might not even fold any suited connectors which oddly enough I'd like to have in that spot more than any pair b/c I can easily flop a draw, and 2 pr is almost just as valuable in that situation as a set. And if the flop comes AKQ, I might not check/fold but I will proceed with caution, it really has nothing to do with the hand that was played for a lot of reasons.
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This hand reminded me of a ZeeJustin post:http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...part=1&vc=1
Almost the same hand with a few major differences though..A- 2k event will most likely have donks that won't care as much.B- 2k event usually has a lot worse structure than a 10k main, in which case the chips you gain my outweigh the ones you lose, even with a big stack (100bb's is HUGE in a 2k event, not so much in a 10k) I still don't like the play he made, even if it works, I think ZJ pwns but I think he has leaks for sure...small ones, smaller than mine :-) .. I think he's too willing to play big pots and often commits himself to gambling a bit, this isn't tough for him right now, but imo it will be when he runs bad live. I think check calling is better b/c you'll probably end up spending the 6k that you will by c/r'ing except you get bluffed more often and you have a better shot at winning more than what's already in the middle on the flop. So, I tend to lean more to strassa's side.Also, Playing a 10k event with a vvgood structure, you're not looking for good preflop hands nearly as much as you are in 2k's...in 10k's you're mostly looking for post flop hands and actually trying to hit them, the problem only comes when you get good preflop hands the 1st levels, never hit a flop in the mid levels, and can't pick up a good PF hand once you're at 30 bb's at the end of day one, which is essentially what happened to me in bay 101. But that's just how tourney poker is, so you have to accept it.
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I can't wrap my head around playing QQ for set value.I guess it just shows why I'm not dominating the tour.
You and me both! But I did agree with him about the jerks at 2+2. That was the first board I posted at before coming here...ick.
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Nice post JC. I agree w/the points you are making, but I lean towards c/c being a little better than c/f. Lets not forget that you have been doing a ton of c/fing throughout the day so you should probably be peeling 1 card here...I just think in day 1 of these 10ks you need to be focusing on protecting your stack more than anything else. To the guy saying "We must protect against AK drawing out!"; that is not the attitude to take when playing deep-stacked. The most important thing is keeping the pot manageable, and at all costs avoiding awkward spots for huge amounts of chips. If we c/r or 4 bet pre, we are going to be in an awkward spot for a huge amount of chips.

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Nice post JC. I agree w/the points you are making, but I lean towards c/c being a little better than c/f. Lets not forget that you have been doing a ton of c/fing throughout the day so you should probably be peeling 1 card here...
yea, shouldnt that be more of a reason for him NOT to reraise me with junk though? I mean, if I'm c/f'ing every time I raise, why not just peel a flop w/ junk and hope I c/f...if he has a monster, then he knows he has no implied odds unless I hit so reraising small might be smarter no?
I just think in day 1 of these 10ks you need to be focusing on protecting your stack more than anything else. To the guy saying "We must protect against AK drawing out!"; that is not the attitude to take when playing deep-stacked. The most important thing is keeping the pot manageable, and at all costs avoiding awkward spots for huge amounts of chips. If we c/r or 4 bet pre, we are going to be in an awkward spot for a huge amount of chips.
IMO, check calling is just a better alternative to the C/R, the difference between the c/c and c/r is that by c/c you might see a showdown for 6 or 7k and the c/r you won't get sucked out on by AK or AQ or JJ but you'll still be commiting 6 or 7k....the difference between the check call and the check fold is huge imo and I think it depends on how you view a 10k buy in tourney, if you think this is not the spot you want to commit 1/3 of your stack in, then u should just check/fold. If I'm seeing a ton of flops then I'll probably end up flopping a better spot later (which I didnt) otherwise I'm just running bad that tourney (which I was)..
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yea, shouldnt that be more of a reason for him NOT to reraise me with junk though? I mean, if I'm c/f'ing every time I raise, why not just peel a flop w/ junk and hope I c/f...if he has a monster, then he knows he has no implied odds unless I hit so reraising small might be smarter no? IMO, check calling is just a better alternative to the C/R, the difference between the c/c and c/r is that by c/c you might see a showdown for 6 or 7k and the c/r you won't get sucked out on by AK or AQ or JJ but you'll still be commiting 6 or 7k....the difference between the check call and the check fold is huge imo and I think it depends on how you view a 10k buy in tourney, if you think this is not the spot you want to commit 1/3 of your stack in, then u should just check/fold. If I'm seeing a ton of flops then I'll probably end up flopping a better spot later (which I didnt) otherwise I'm just running bad that tourney (which I was)..
Yea, I just meant you know he is going to be cont betting w/100% of hands that he is reraising pf. But I do agree that his range is fairly tight especially given that this is the first hand he has 3 bet all day.The point about c/r and c/c is well taken, by c/c you spend the same amount of chips as c/r (or possibly less if the river goes c/c), but you also get to see a showdown and maybe even extract chips from him on a bluff.Its an interesting spot and similar spots come up early in 10ks so its definitely something to think about.
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This hand is so sick
but it looks so simple doesnt it? I'd post it on other forums but I'm way too lazy ...this is also officially the first hand I've ever PM'ed to DN, but he didnt read it..In general I think he might check fold, but maybe check call...I'm not sure..
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but it looks so simple doesnt it? I'd post it on other forums but I'm way too lazy ...this is also officially the first hand I've ever PM'ed to DN, but he didnt read it..In general I think he might check fold, but maybe check call...I'm not sure..
It's so complex IMO, it makes me realize how much I still have to learn because I just literally can't think it through and come up with a good line for this hand.
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I like the check fold here. IMO check raising to $7000/fold to shove is so bad. You are giving up 40% of your stack. If you want to play this hand forward check calling is a decent line to me as you may be able to get to showdown w just the 7000 you would've reraised to anyways.

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It sent out a brief and clear message that your initial response to his post had the general pompous tone that most of the "I'm too good for this" 2+2'ers use when they answer some noob.
That's funny, because that's the general sense I got from his response...I've caught a whiff of elitism to what, in my mind, are very legitimate questions. The elitism comes from guys who look down upon them as "obvious" and "not worth the time to address".I also catch a whiff of elitism about "big stack tourneys"....I didn't just fall off the turnip truck...I've played hold'em (profitably I might add) for 15 years, and I've played several big stack tourneys (anywhere from starting 200-600 BB's - admittedly, nothing higher than $1500 buyin.) I have, however, done well across them all, so, either I know what I'm doing, or I'm an inherently lucky donkey - whatever you decide fits in your universe is fine with me.That aside...I recognize I have much to learn, which is why I post and read here. So, yes, it can piss me off when I run into some of the snobs and cliques and forum godfathers that slouch around both here and other forums.It also pisses me off that I can't get this hand out of my head, and I'm starting to wonder if the best way to play it is to hope you were in the bathroom when the cards were dealt and never know about it. :club:
essentially, no.. say you pick off the c-bet with a c/r 50% of the time, then that 50% of the time you're winning 5200 and your stack will be at 23k or so, the other 50% of the time it'll be at around 10k,
I personally think it's likely more like picking off the c-bet 75% of the time, but it may not matter.
who cares? why would I wan't to commit 5k more preflop to win 1600 and not define his hand at all....I think he's almost NEVER 4 bet shoving AA and KK here, so when he smooth calls then I'm 100% screwed, and now I have the lead in a big pot without even seeing a flop yet..no thank you...also, what if he decides to smooth call with AK? And what if he 4 bet shoves on me? even if I know he's almost never doing it with AA or KK I can't call, because I have 50bb's + left and I can for sure pick a better spot.
Depends on who it is...and how well he knows you, and if he respects your play. Someone like Hellmuth likely four-bets all-in because he expects you to be an idiot and call with TT or AK.Maybe it's wrong, but I can raise another 2500-3500 pf into the 3000 chip pot, and fold to a shove.
Does a flop lead not define villain's hand...or will he raise you with all the same hands he would have cb with?no.... most likely yes.
Thank you...that was the answer I was looking for.I'll go back to the question I asked on the first page of this thread.Can we represent a set and make villain fold AA/KK? Lead, and then push his raise? Check/push? (whether or not it's worth the risk is another ball of wax)
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I like the check fold here. IMO check raising to $7000/fold to shove is so bad. You are giving up 40% of your stack. If you want to play this hand forward check calling is a decent line to me as you may be able to get to showdown w just the 7000 you would've reraised to anyways.
Only if we are ahead. And stay ahead through the river. I see the value in check/calling as Hoosier or PP put out a good post about it, but the value in the C/R is to end the hand right there on the flop and get an extra bet from villain. If he calls the C/R its over, if he reraises its over there is no showdown at all with the C/R. The problem with check/calling the flop to me has already been outlined by Hoos/PP as well. We are going to lay down the best hand a little too often IMO if he fires again on the turn. We are also letting worse hands catch up for free and not really knowing which cards are bad, I'm assuming they are A or K, but I doubt PPSux is the only one that enjoys raising, calling raises, and reraising with small pairs and suited connectors/gappers early. Everyone likes to do that because they are sneaky and you can hopefully catch someone stuck with a big pair, so I don't see villain's hand so easily defined as big pocket pair. It may be, but it might just be top pair or nothing so far, I really hate playing QQ this weak. I also don't like being OOP check/calling when we haven't defined his hand and are trying to keep the pot small, this is very difficult to do. It's not an enviable hand/spot for me to be in at all.I understand the value of keeping your stack in day 1 and that PPsux thought he could find better spots later, so it's a tough call. I don't mind laying down and looking for a better spot, but I think its dangerously close to overestimating your edge on the field.
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Only if we are ahead. And stay ahead through the river. I see the value in check/calling as Hoosier or PP put out a good post about it, but the value in the C/R is to end the hand right there on the flop and get an extra bet from villain. If he calls the C/R its over, if he reraises its over there is no showdown at all with the C/R. The problem with check/calling the flop to me has already been outlined by Hoos/PP as well. We are going to lay down the best hand a little too often IMO if he fires again on the turn. We are also letting worse hands catch up for free and not really knowing which cards are bad, I'm assuming they are A or K, but I doubt PPSux is the only one that enjoys raising, calling raises, and reraising with small pairs and suited connectors/gappers early. Everyone likes to do that because they are sneaky and you can hopefully catch someone stuck with a big pair, so I don't see villain's hand so easily defined as big pocket pair. It may be, but it might just be top pair or nothing so far, I really hate playing QQ this weak. I also don't like being OOP check/calling when we haven't defined his hand and are trying to keep the pot small, this is very difficult to do. It's not an enviable hand/spot for me to be in at all.I understand the value of keeping your stack in day 1 and that PPsux thought he could find better spots later, so it's a tough call. I don't mind laying down and looking for a better spot, but I think its dangerously close to overestimating your edge on the field.
I get the point about the check call opening hero up to get pushed off the best hand on later streets. My concern for the check raise is this everyone says check raise to 6000ish if you get a call shut down. Now lets say for example turn/river come 2,2 and villian checks behind on the turn then value bets the river for say 30% of the pot...do we really fold QQ in this spot as hero? Also with the fact that hero has been fairly aggro preflop can we really narrow down villians reraise in position to only AA,KK or AK could he not be taking advantage of this info with a much larger range? Maybe rereaise preflop with the QQ isn't a bad line to take.
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but I think its dangerously close to overestimating your edge on the field.
You're not really overestimating your edge, you're just calculating that if you get 23k in chips you'll most likely be playing just about the same as if you have 17k, and if you think you can maintain your stack at 15-20k for the next 3 hrs you'll still have 30-40bb's coming into the 3rd hour and within those 3 hrs if you're not running like dog ****, you should be able to find one or two good spots to double up. C/R'ing the flop turns your QQ into 72 imo, it becomes a "pleeeease fold" bluff and I try my best to stay away from those on day one.
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That's funny, because that's the general sense I got from his response...
After your first comment, for sure, I'd do the same.
I also catch a whiff of elitism about "big stack tourneys"....
There is, for sure...People who haven't played them don't know exactly what approach to take, which is why I posted it here knowing most people haven't played a 10k event with a sick structure, I thought it'd be cool to get people thinking about this hand that plays so much different than online where I rarely would fold QQ pre. let alone call a rr and c/f. There are hundreds of pros who play 10k's and still don't understand how to approach them, just go rail one and see how many of the big names are busting on the 2nd or 3rd level in the name of "playing to win" which is nonsense in these things even if you run KK into AA or AA into a set. It's simple, you do not have to gamble or bluff big on day 1 unless you somehow got short relative to the bigger blinds at the end of the day, and in order to avoid getting short you just need to stay away from marginal situations. This situation, imho, is as marginal as they get. I personally think it's likely more like picking off the c-bet 75% of the time, but it may not matter.probably doesn't matter, like I said before, you're praying he folds either way so you're essentially bluffing 1/3 of your stack with no real read, that's a no no.Maybe it's wrong, but I can raise another 2500-3500 pf into the 3000 chip pot, and fold to a shove.but what do you do when he smooth calls? The reason I make small 3 bets like this vs good players with AA is because they can usually put me on QQ and make a move, it also makes it less likely for them to fold KK preflop, which isn't that uncommon in these deepstack tourneys. Basically I'm smooth calling here with any hand other than AA and with KK I MIGHT go broke or crippled if he bets the turn
Can we represent a set and make villain fold AA/KK? Lead, and then push his raise?..... Check/push? (whether or not it's worth the risk is another ball of wax)
lead/push...again, that's a move....we're not looking to make moves, I'd be more inclined to do this if I flop a flush draw..... Check/push is just silly.Regardless though, by now I'm almost 100% sure I want to c/f this hand and wait for a better spot...Think about it this way, in a cash game, I wouldn't c/f the flop because I can reload, but I certainly would be happier to get reraised with 810s than with QQ, I also wouldnt c/r the flop. I'd either c/c down or c/r the turn if he bet a blank.
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I don't mind laying down and looking for a better spot, but I think its dangerously close to overestimating your edge on the field.
Indeed. And it doesn't do wonders for your table image either, which makes me wonder how much "smallball" you'll be able to play from that point out without getting run over again and again.
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Does a flop lead not define villain's hand...or will he raise you with all the same hands he would have cb with?
If I am villain, I raise any lead on the flop no matter what cards I have (including AK). Pretty sure most good players would so pretty much all it does is put JC into lead/fold mode (otherwise, he is putting his entire stack at risk). Leading a flop after the Villain was the agressor is incredibly weak most of the time.
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but it looks so simple doesnt it? I'd post it on other forums but I'm way too lazy ...this is also officially the first hand I've ever PM'ed to DN, but he didnt read it..In general I think he might check fold, but maybe check call...I'm not sure..
DN = station so this isn't a maybe lol.good thread.
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