Bay 101 ..hand That Bugged Me

[RDog 0]

Ugh, this is tough. I probably call and hope he slows down on the turn. Given your read on the limper and the villains read on you, I'm still not convinced you are behind here. I also can't argue against raising here to try to determine where you are at. The only issue I have with raising here is....what do you do on the turn if he just calls your raise?

[PrtyPSux 0]

\what do you do on the turn if he just calls your raise?

exactly, I have to check fold but then again it'd be hard for him to call with a hand I have beat, so him calling is the same as him raising, except it gives me the free shot at spiking 2 outs.

[DCJ001 0]

I check, he bets 2200 pretty fast. Considering I had 18k to start the hand, and its barely the 200 level, What is your play?

I usually feel that someone with a strong hand takes a little longer to think about how much to bet.WWDDWhat would Daniel do?http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...showtopic=88379Check, call, check, call, unless you sense that he's strong?

[RDog 0]

exactly, I have to check fold but then again it'd be hard for him to call with a hand I have beat, so him calling is the same as him raising, except it gives me the free shot at spiking 2 outs.

Yeah, its tough. I can see arguments for folding, calling or raising. I probably call but then again, you probably have to take less chances to get chips than I do.

[GrinderMJ 0]

I actually think folding is by far the best play, I think raising this spot is pretty suicidal a big % of the time.

[SlackerInc 0]

I'm torn between folding and pushing, followed by calling. I think the 6/7k raise is the worst option--just more chips than you should put in the pot without pushing. I mean, when Copernicus and I discussed this, I mentioned that Sklansky says 40% is the limit, but he said it's more like 25-30%. 7k is higher than either of those, and 6k is pretty borderline.I do tend to think villain's range is wider than some of you are giving him credit for, and we have to keep the raggedy rainbow board in mind too (villain might think we whiffed with AK, and/or he might have done so himself). I think this is a real tough one, but I lean slightly toward a "crying push", if you will. Even if you are behind, you might spike a Q on the turn or river...

[GrinderMJ 0]

I'm torn between folding and pushing, followed by calling. I think the 6/7k raise is the worst option--just more chips than you should put in the pot without pushing. I mean, when Copernicus and I discussed this, I mentioned that Sklansky says 40% is the limit, but he said it's more like 25-30%. 7k is higher than either of those, and 6k is pretty borderline.I do tend to think villain's range is wider than some of you are giving him credit for, and we have to keep the raggedy rainbow board in mind too (villain might think we whiffed with AK, and/or he might have done so himself). I think this is a real tough one, but I lean slightly toward a "crying push", if you will. Even if you are behind, you might spike a Q on the turn or river...

Shoving is super super bad. He bets 2200 on the flop, and you shove 13 or 14k at him? Everytime you get looked up you are crushed, and all a shove does at this point is get all our chips in while we are way behind, and make our opponent fold worse hands. Maybe there's a tiny chance he makes a hero call with 1010 or JJ but that's lofty. JC is a small baller, and if he just folds the flop, he has over 16k at 100/200/25. JC can find much much better spots with an M of over 30 vs. live donks

[SlackerInc 0]

Shoving is super super bad. He bets 2200 on the flop, and you shove 13 or 14k at him? Everytime you get looked up you are crushed, and all a shove does at this point is get all our chips in while we are way behind, and make our opponent fold worse hands.

I see your point, but it strikes me that there are points to make about why the other alternatives are bad as well. I already laid out why I think the non-push reraise is bad. Calling might lose us as many chips or more, while dragging us along with no idea where we stand, and of course calling gives us no fold equity. And I think at this point hero is so lost, scooping up the pot and moving on is not a bad result.Let's also remember that you're making the shove look like an overbet in relation to villain's flop bet, but in relation to the whole pot it's not nearly so huge.

[mk 11]

exactly, I have to check fold but then again it'd be hard for him to call with a hand I have beat, so him calling is the same as him raising, except it gives me the free shot at spiking 2 outs.

pretty gross spot...i think a c/f is perfectly fine. you really just have no way to find out where you're at because he could easily shove over a c/r with JJ or something and then you have to surrender a HUGE pot.the only hope here is that you're sort of chronically underrepresented at the table by playing a ton of pots and showing down some weakish hands. it might cause this guy to overplay JJ/TT, but again, you have no way of finding out without playing a huge pot with 1 pair, not a fun thing to do with 100+ BB stacks.something i might consider here is 3-betting pre. it might be the best way to define your hand, unless this opponent is capable of n-barreling without AA/KK. i know your game is sort of based on not making plays like this pre, and i almost never do it either but unless you flop a set, you aren't in love with any board.

[meservery 0]

The flop is 984r..I check, he bets 2200 pretty fast. Considering I had 18k to start the hand, and its barely the 200 level, What is your play?

Is it bad to lead the flop here? Bet like 1500 or so, fold to a raise.

[PrtyPSux 0]

Is it bad to lead the flop here? Bet like 1500 or so, fold to a raise.

yea it's pretty bad...seems too weak and almost any semi strong player will raise u in that spot.

[Sen. Bill Frist 0]

I dont understand calling the re raise and then folding to a c bet on this flop? Did you call for set value?

[SlackerInc 0]

I dont understand calling the re raise and then folding to a c bet on this flop? Did you call for set value?

Great question. Would be different if there were a K or A on the flop.

[shpaget 0]

If we put him on AA/KK, can we make him think we flopped a set, and fold?Lead flop, push his raise?Is AK entirely out of the question?Doesn't leading the flop define your opponent's hand more than a check to a bet that could be either a bluff, or a cb to a player who has shown a propensity to check/fold flops?

[Acid_Knight 2]

Check folding is ridiculously weak here. You have enough chips left to make an assertive check-raise and then fold if he calls or raises. If you were so sure he had AA or KK, fold preflop. You called to see a flop, got an EXTREMELY favorable one and chose to check-fold the hand? It doesn't make sense to me.

[Ouch-8s 4]

I don't understand this hand at all....If villian has you beat, and has noticed your check/fold flop tendency, wouldn't he check and hope you'll bet the turn? Or is giving you an additional card too dangerous on this board (I think we can agree the board didn't hit him, right?)Do you play the hand the same, regardless of the board unless you hit your 2outer? No attempt to represent an Ace if one flops?I see that the stacks are awkward, and that you can't really determine where you are with much certainty without committing a significant portion of your stack. That makes an argument for a rere PF.Sometimes position seems relatively unimportant, but sometimes it is so clear how key it is. If you're going to play OOP, don't you want to put him to a significant decision, either by rere PF, or lead/reraise flop, or c/r flop?All that said you can c/f, still have 16.4k, and look for easier spots, but if you're going to do that, I'm not sure why you didn't just fold PF and have 17.4k? Purely for set value? Priced in? C/f is the safest play I suppose, but not as safe as folding to his min+ raise PF, which we cannot do.Meh. Trust your instincts, hope for the best, I guess, and assume you dodged bullets, baby.

[HoosierAlum 0]

How many times prior to this hand had villian re-raised pf?Check-folding is fine, but it just seems weak to basically be playing QQ for set value only. Essentially by check folding that is what you're doing b/c this is a good flop for our hand.While I don't hate your line, I think check-calling is probably best. I'm assuming he is going to c/bet most flops, so check-call, evaluate on turn. On the turn I'm check /folding, as I doubt he is going to 2 barrel on this dry board. By c/c we also get a chance at a 2 outer (if we needed it), and perhaps most importantly it keeps the pot manageable. Although who knows if the turn pairs the bottom card or is some brick he could value bet 10s or Js but once he fires a 2nd barrel its time to shutdown most times imo. This line could be exploitable if he would v bet 10s or Js, or fire 2 barrels with air/draws...but I still think its best. I actually think c/raising is pretty bad. Sure it "lets us know where we are at" but it costs us 1/3 of our stack and builds a huge pot to find out when essentially we can find out the same info by check/calling flop and seeing what he does on the turn. So say you c/r to 6k, he folds everything we beat (JJ,1010, AK,AQ) and any air. He calls/jams with overpairs/sets. I really see little value with this play as it seems like the classic "He isn't folding anything better and he only calls with hands that beat us". IMO: c/c>c/f>c/r>leadingSo in a nutshell, c/c spike Q on turn and double up. :icon_biggrin:Oh and if he checks behind a blank turn and a blank river hits, check/call is best. He will probably v bet Js and 10s, and we might get him to fire out another bluff with whiffed overs/air when he would have just otherwise mucked to our river lead. Also leading river is bad because we are in a world of hurt if he decides to get sexy with a river bluff.

[HoosierAlum 0]

This hand reminded me of a ZeeJustin post:http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...part=1&vc=1

[copernicus 0]

Without reading the rest of the responses, your description seems to put the pro on an overpair to 9s most of the time, in which case youre a coinflip. He could be semibluffing a straight draw, but he also could have made an aggresively played (preflop) set or two pair out of 98s. Youre probably slightly ahead here overall, but given your approach to this tourney it doesnt seem like the time to tangle with him.Edit: After reading the responses, I hate a check raise to 6 or 7k, it commits far too much of the starting stack. There is a lot of validity to the point that calling preflop and folding here is equivalent to playing QQ for set value, and the board has no A, K or two suited, yet Im still thinking about folding? That leads me to think that the right line is reraising preflop. Its cheaper than check/raising, and takes control of the hand. If he reraises PF he's pretty solidly on AA,KK...he doesnt want to donk out at this time in the tourney against your AA, KK or QQ. If he calls the preflop raise and you get an A or K board you can get out. With this board you try and retain control of the hand with a lead bet.As played I still fold, but if you are going to play on I think check/push is better than the alternatives. You do have some fold equity on top of the times youre ahead, because sets and two pair are more in your range with the pf action than they are in his.

[shpaget 0]

So say you c/r to 6k, he folds everything we beat (JJ,1010, AK,AQ) and any air. He calls/jams with overpairs/sets. I really see little value with this play as it seems like the classic "He isn't folding anything better and he only calls with hands that beat us".

Why do people continually misuse this idiom?This does not hold entirely true when we are on the flop and there are two redraws to come.We WANT to prevent AK from drawing...and that is a hand that can reraise from the button, and make a nice cb to that board, ESPECIALLY against a player who has consistently folded flops after raising preflop. We either want AK to fold, or pay a bad price to draw. A c/r to 6k gives AK nice pricing - A c/c gives AK phenomenal pricing.As well, if for some reason he has reraised JJ or TT preflop, we are giving the hand away.Do we honestly isolate his holdings to AA and KK? In that case, are you check-folding a flop of AKQr?You don't think he flopped a set or top two, do you?Please educate me, because I'm feeling pretty stupid...why is leading the flop bad? Why is reraising preflop bad?No, I don't think we need to go broke here...at all...but I do think we need to invest a little more.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Why do people continually misuse this idiom?This does not hold entirely true when we are on the flop and there are two redraws to come.We WANT to prevent AK from drawing...and that is a hand that can reraise from the button, and make a nice cb to that board, ESPECIALLY against a player who has consistently folded flops after raising preflop. We either want AK to fold, or pay a bad price to draw. A c/r to 6k gives AK nice pricing - A c/c gives AK phenomenal pricing.As well, if for some reason he has reraised JJ or TT preflop, we are giving the hand away.Do we honestly isolate his holdings to AA and KK? In that case, are you check-folding a flop of AKQr?You don't think he flopped a set or top two, do you?Please educate me, because I'm feeling pretty stupid...why is leading the flop bad? Why is reraising preflop bad?No, I don't think we need to go broke here...at all...but I do think we need to invest a little more.

wow, just wow.

[mk 11]

here's the lesson from this hand: playing pots oop with deep stacks sucks balls.

[HoosierAlum 0]

here's the lesson from this hand: playing pots oop with deep stacks sucks balls.

yep.also, as a general rule in deep stacked NLHE: Protecting your stack is much more important than protecting your hand.

[shpaget 0]

wow, just wow.

Good input.It's a very simple series of questions.Does villain, or does he not, make this play with AK, AQ, JJ and TT? Or just AA and KK? Does he reraise pf with 99, 88 or 98?Do all the times you pick off a cb with a c/r outweigh the times you are beat? Giving your loose image, can a good player with AK or TT or JJ think he's still ahead of you on the turn, if you called the flop and checked the turn, and bet at you again?Can you not c/r here, and fold and still play effectively with over 50 big blinds?Does check/calling define anything? Or does it just give a worse hand a free two-outer..or worse, a free six outer? And, by checking the turn, another free shot? Not to mention that if you are behind, and you do suckout, you need to extract another 10k+ out of him to make the play profitable.Does a preflop re-reraise narrow villain's range?Does a flop lead not define villain's hand...or will he raise you with all the same hands he would have cb with?

[SlackerInc 0]

Without reading the rest of the responses, your description seems to put the pro on an overpair to 9s most of the time, in which case youre a coinflip. He could be semibluffing a straight draw, but he also could have made an aggresively played (preflop) set or two pair out of 98s. Youre probably slightly ahead here overall, but given your approach to this tourney it doesnt seem like the time to tangle with him.Edit: After reading the responses, I hate a check raise to 6 or 7k, it commits far too much of the starting stack. There is a lot of validity to the point that calling preflop and folding here is equivalent to playing QQ for set value, and the board has no A, K or two suited, yet Im still thinking about folding? That leads me to think that the right line is reraising preflop. Its cheaper than check/raising, and takes control of the hand. If he reraises PF he's pretty solidly on AA,KK...he doesnt want to donk out at this time in the tourney against your AA, KK or QQ. If he calls the preflop raise and you get an A or K board you can get out. With this board you try and retain control of the hand with a lead bet.As played I still fold, but if you are going to play on I think check/push is better than the alternatives. You do have some fold equity on top of the times youre ahead, because sets and two pair are more in your range with the pf action than they are in his.

Sweet vindication! (ETA: I guess Copernicus isn't endorsing the exact line that I took, but closer than many of the other responses.)