Jump to content

The State Of Limit Poker


Recommended Posts

Good post. Only one point. They're the same game, BUT live games are much easier to beat than online simply because there are more fish in live games. You can beat a good live game for more BB/100 than you can beat an online game. There may still be a few online games that play a bit like live, Bodog for instance, but live still has worse players overall than online. I think this is part of the reason many "winning" live players get crushed online. That and the fact that they probably don't keep good records and may not even be beating that live game, they just think they are.
Yeah, I thought I touched on the softness of the live games, but I guess not.Again, my point with respect to the games not being any different, was that the difficulty of the table has no impact. There are tough live games, and super soft online games.But in general, online is filled with better players, yeah. Again though, that doesn't change my point that its still the same game that you go to the casino to play.
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 50
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

they also could have been playing for what seems like a long time and not played enough hands to have ran bad yet. it could take a live only players a year to figure out that he is definitely not beating a game if he relied only on math. then they jump online and bust out 10,000 hands in a month and get their asses handed to them.
Another good point.In defending my live play, I didn't mention, I don't keep records, and I probably haven't logged enough hands to have a solid sample size, since we see like 20 hands/hour, but I have no doubt in my mind that I can crush those games over the long run.
Link to post
Share on other sites
they also could have been playing for what seems like a long time and not played enough hands to have ran bad yet. it could take a live only players a year to figure out that he is definitely not beating a game if he relied only on math. then they jump online and bust out 10,000 hands in a month and get their asses handed to them.
Excellent point. Since I started keeping better records, I've logged something like 42 hours playing my local casino's 6/12 game. I'm winning something like $30 an hour at that game. I've probably logged something like another 30-40 hours playing various other levels of limit hold'em (mostly 3/6) before I kept good records and while I know that I've won money (I started with a certain sum of money, which I've never replenished, but taken out a good bit to spend and to cover a $550 tourney buy-in), I really don't know how much. So, I can only speak to the 42 hours I have on record at 6/12. Even if we assume 25 hands/hour, that's still only like 1k hands, which is a total drop in the bucket. While I'm pretty sure that this game can be beaten for a minimum of 1-1.5 BB/hr (which is like 4-6 BB/100), I can't say that with any great degree of certainty. The long run takes a hell of a lot longer in live poker and that's something that is too often ignored.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Great posts, Zach and Cinci. I see your points. There is definitely a sample size and resource issue with measuring your live play ability, compared to online.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Another good point.In defending my live play, I didn't mention, I don't keep records, and I probably haven't logged enough hands to have a solid sample size, since we see like 20 hands/hour, but I have no doubt in my mind that I can crush those games over the long run.
crushing a 3/6 game gets you what? $2.00/hour? Online play is the way to go.
Link to post
Share on other sites

maybe this is way too optimistic, but to think that a huge company like Party Poker would just let millions of dollars of profit in the form of US players just go is ridiculous. Sure they're making more than enough on Canadian/European/etc. players, but they had to have lost millions by having to ban US playes. You have to think that they have people working pretty hard at finding loopholes or ways around the US government's ban. Not that they'll find one anytime soon or that these kinds of sites will return to the way they were, but I just dont think they would just passively let millions of dollars in profit slip through their hands.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I went to Pechanga (local B&M) yesterday afternoon for a couple hours and sat down at 2/4 limit for the first time. All I can say is what everybody has been saying about live limit being much softer is so very true. I've played NL there before, which is obv softer than online too, but limit is even more fishy than NL. The sad thing is I still finished my session down a bit. I sat there for 2.5 hours and barely played a hand...and two that I did play I got sucked out on. Its ok though...I played good and I know in the long run Id crush that game. But Id still rather play online.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I went to Pechanga (local B&M) yesterday afternoon for a couple hours yesterday and sat down at 2/4 limit for the first time. All I can say is what everybody has been saying about live limit being much softer is so very true. I've played NL there before, which is obv softer than online too, but limit is even more fishy than NL. The sad thing is I still finished my session down a bit. I sat there for 2.5 hours and barely played a hand...and two that I did play I got sucked out on. Its ok though...I played good and I know in the long run Id crush that game. But Id still rather play online.
Yeah live can be kinda boring if you're used to mulit-tabling online. Especially at a low limit like 2/4. It can definitely be crushed though if you know what you're doing and bring enough money, you can actually make a decent hourly rate (maybe $12/hr) as low as 4/8.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys.........I have a few questions/commentsCan I get rakeback on a pre-existing account at Absolute ?I have recently done a deposit bonus at VegasPoker24/7, a relative of Absolute's. Is there a way to get Pokertracker to work with Vegas? What's the deal with the popularoty of short handed ? I understand for you guys that are good, you have an even bigger edge/more hands per hour, but why are the bad players so eager to play it ? I like full ring....I'm more comfortable with my odds of playing drawing hands, etc and playing my actual cards/ not dealing with reads as much. It's killing me seeing more SH tables than FR. Whyyyyyyyy ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Apart from the intellectual challenge, I think it's a question of game selection. If you're playing online or in Las Vegas, it's not a big issue because you should be able to find a good no-limit game. If you're playing in smaller venues, however, then you may miss opportunities to play or to play in the best game. I know that I've passed on some potentially profitable 20/40 games because I don't trust my limit hold'em skills for those stakes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi guys.........I have a few questions/commentsCan I get rakeback on a pre-existing account at Absolute ?I have recently done a deposit bonus at VegasPoker24/7, a relative of Absolute's. Is there a way to get Pokertracker to work with Vegas? What's the deal with the popularoty of short handed ? I understand for you guys that are good, you have an even bigger edge/more hands per hour, but why are the bad players so eager to play it ? I like full ring....I'm more comfortable with my odds of playing drawing hands, etc and playing my actual cards/ not dealing with reads as much. It's killing me seeing more SH tables than FR. Whyyyyyyyy ?
For your average fish, shorthanded is often more palatable because you get to see more total hands and you get to play more hands. And you're even correct to play more hands than you would in a ring game. The only real downside for the fish is that there's a ton of variance and he might lose his money quicker, of course he might also win a bunch real quick too. Personally, I'm more comfortable playing full-ring and probably always will be, however I'm trying to get more and more comfortable with shorthanded b/c the games are better and there are more of them. Besides, you can earn rakeback quicker.
Link to post
Share on other sites
maybe this is way too optimistic, but to think that a huge company like Party Poker would just let millions of dollars of profit in the form of US players just go is ridiculous. Sure they're making more than enough on Canadian/European/etc. players, but they had to have lost millions by having to ban US playes. You have to think that they have people working pretty hard at finding loopholes or ways around the US government's ban. Not that they'll find one anytime soon or that these kinds of sites will return to the way they were, but I just dont think they would just passively let millions of dollars in profit slip through their hands.
I think the end-game is that it will be back and regulated and the US Gov will be able to take their 'cut' .... they had zero leverage before, now they got nothing but leverage. I think that's why we saw sites immediately cooperate, to get into the Gov's good books when they do allow it again.Good topic/thread overall .... there's no question that NL is on the way up and L is on the way down. In the old days, one was supposed to learn at Limit and move from there if they want ... now everyone goes straight to NL, thus there's more money to be made there. Limit will always survive, just not as goot as before.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Let me just say that since the Neteller crap, AP 3/6 short has gotten significantly more donktastic.
It's not just the 3/6 short.I've been playing some extra tournaments on AP since the the Neteller thing and the Sit-n-Go players are terrible compared to before. And, the MTT players are just as bad if not worse than a year ago.I totally didn't expect this.On the flipside, the small stakes (50 and lower)NL tables I've gotten recently have been tougher than before. But I haven't put many hours in there.-M
Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah live can be kinda boring if you're used to mulit-tabling online. Especially at a low limit like 2/4. It can definitely be crushed though if you know what you're doing and bring enough money, you can actually make a decent hourly rate (maybe $12/hr) as low as 4/8.
And, I've noticed that many of the live low-limit tables are up to 10% max $4 PLUS $1 for jackpot. So, be careful with your table/casino selection at these limits.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Good topic/thread overall .... there's no question that NL is on the way up and L is on the way down. In the old days, one was supposed to learn at Limit and move from there if they want ... now everyone goes straight to NL, thus there's more money to be made there. Limit will always survive, just not as goot as before.
While you don't say what you mean by "on the way up" I think comparing NL to L is hardly something where there's "no question". If you mean it's easier to make money at NL than L I'd argue with you. A few years ago LHE online was super soft. The game has certainly tightened up a lot pre-flop but the players aren't much better (arguable even worse on average) post flop. It's certainly remains beatable but many low limit games are beatable only for small amounts because the game is rocky in general. With the rise of SH LHE though I'd say it's easier to win at SH LHE than it is to win at comparable small stake NL. The small stakes NL in my experience has also tightened up quite a bit pre-flop at least. I guess that Smash-strat for example would not work at all at most $25 or $50 NL tables where in the past it might have worked well. If you mean simply in terms of popularity then yes, I'd agree that NLHE is clearly the most popular game and probably also the game that most new players start with. Though a good deal of recreational players prefer limit in the casino because they "risk losing less".
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup, popularity is what I meant ... majority new players going to NL, and many Limit players moving to the new money (and potentially less swings if played conservatively) means less Limit games spread. The majority of my time I play 20/40 kill live, but I've started playing a lot more NL lately (2/5 & 3/6) to make sure I leave my options open. Defintely more money on the table and way bigger average pots at 20/40.Interesting question .... Who, on average, do you all think will have more success at switching games, a Limit player to NL, or the other way around?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Yup, popularity is what I meant ... majority new players going to NL, and many Limit players moving to the new money (and potentially less swings if played conservatively) means less Limit games spread. The majority of my time I play 20/40 kill live, but I've started playing a lot more NL lately (2/5 & 3/6) to make sure I leave my options open. Defintely more money on the table and way bigger average pots at 20/40.Interesting question .... Who, on average, do you all think will have more success at switching games, a Limit player to NL, or the other way around?
Ive been thinking about this question alot and Im still not completely sure. I think there are more examples of limit players becoming NL players, but I think most of that has to do with the progression of poker since the boom and since most NL players dont feel a need to learn limit.Im probably being biased since Im a limit player, but I think its easier to go from LHE to NL. I think that the TAG style that is learned and needed in LHE is probably the best way too start playing every other game.It would be nice to hear from players who have had success in both game.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had this discussion with a few guys and you can really get some strong opinions on both sides of the fence. I think the biggest difference is from a psychological perspective in that I think Limit players have way more respect towards NL, than NL players have towards Limit. This lack of respect (no fold'em hold'em, suck outs, can't protect your hand etc) imo, clouds their judgement and makes it difficult to play Limit. They are different games (duh!) and if you don't have your head around that before you sit down and play Limit then you're hooped. Maybe respect isn't the right word .... hopefully I'm making a little sense!

Link to post
Share on other sites
I've had this discussion with a few guys and you can really get some strong opinions on both sides of the fence. I think the biggest difference is from a psychological perspective in that I think Limit players have way more respect towards NL, than NL players have towards Limit. This lack of respect (no fold'em hold'em, suck outs, can't protect your hand etc) imo, clouds their judgement and makes it difficult to play Limit. They are different games (duh!) and if you don't have your head around that before you sit down and play Limit then you're hooped. Maybe respect isn't the right word .... hopefully I'm making a little sense!
I know what you mean. Maybe we are both being unfair to NL players but LHE players seem to be more open to learn any new game with an open mind.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Interesting question .... Who, on average, do you all think will have more success at switching games, a Limit player to NL, or the other way around?
The OP (me) is a NL player trying to learn limit for the first time. I've only been playing poker for a year, but I've played a hell of a lot of poker in the last 12 months. In my first year of poker I'm up about 3k, and I think thats something to be proud of, but almost all of my profits though are from NL MTTs and SnGs. I'm pretty much breakeven in cash games. I know I need to develope my cash game skills if I ever want to be able to call myself a good poker player. I really want to learn LHE from inside out and become a strong player. It seems to me that if a person is a very strong limit player it wouldnt be hard for them to transition to NL cash games. In fact I think it could be argued that starting with limit, or at least devoting yourself to limit for a period of time so you can learn to play it properly, might be necessary for anybody that wants to reach their maximum potential in NL. But it all come down to profitibility...hence the reason for this thread. Thanks for the replies...I plan to be in this forum more often.
Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the biggest difference is from a psychological perspective in that I think Limit players have way more respect towards NL, than NL players have towards Limit. This lack of respect (no fold'em hold'em, suck outs, can't protect your hand etc) imo, clouds their judgement and makes it difficult to play Limit. They are different games (duh!) and if you don't have your head around that before you sit down and play Limit then you're hooped. Maybe respect isn't the right word .... hopefully I'm making a little sense!
Dont mean to perpetuate stereotypes, but every single serious no limit player ive met in real life is kind of an *** clown. Mouth-breathing, shade-wearing, puts their hat on sideways with the stickers still on, challenge you to a heads up match if you look at them the wrong way - douchebaggery.Serious limit players tend to be nerdy or on a field trip from an old folks home.And given those broad generalizations, we can see why limit players appear to be more respectful of the game - they're mostly just less confrontational.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Dont mean to perpetuate stereotypes, but every single serious no limit player ive met in real life is kind of an *** clown. Mouth-breathing, shade-wearing, puts their hat on sideways with the stickers still on, challenge you to a heads up match if you look at them the wrong way - douchebaggery.Serious limit players tend to be nerdy or on a field trip from an old folks home.And given those broad generalizations, we can see why limit players appear to be more respectful of the game - they're mostly just less confrontational.
I don't know about nerdy ... howza about more mature? I say that as an add on to what you said as I don't neccessarily agree ... I've played with a lot of mature/respectful people at NL. I know what you're saying about young guys as there's a ton of 'em and they all play NL.As far as confrontational goes ... what's said above is correct but, a huge part of it, imo, is that with NL your entire stack is at risk every hand you play versus Limit is "just another bet". As a result NL is more stressful causing the confrontational aspect you speak of. Generally, Limit tables are a lot more fun to play,imo, as everyone seems to be more relaxed and sociable.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Announcements


×
×
  • Create New...