A7s To A Push

[Actuary 3]

WrongWay,I'm glad you responded.It validates my points.and, yeah, my sentence structure was a bit off.What you said is what I meant.The point being there is no reason for anyone to try to discuss it with you.So you saying:No amount of being a **** is going to convince me that it is impossible for on-line poker to be rigged. Quite the contrary. Being a **** just shows me you have no logical argument that could be used to convince me. Being a **** is a last resort.and implying you'd listen to a non-**** with logical arguments trying to convince you, is pointless.Rigging Cash sites would KILL business. I could careless what you think of play sites. It's the impication that real sites MIGHT be rigged that is relevant.

[WrongWay 0]

I could careless what you think of play sites. It's the impication that real sites MIGHT be rigged that is relevant.

How many poker sites are there? How many different countries do they opeate out of? What type of oversite do some of these countries provide? How easy would it be to put in a slight bias?Which is irrational given insufficient data?1) To believe it impossible that at least one site is at least slightly rigged.2) To believe it possible.And let's say, for the sake of argument, that online poker ia 100% not rigged.Now convince me that I should donate my money to the many, many much better players out there. Live poker, I control who I get into games with and can judge the relative skill of those players. On-line, I join a game with no control over who gets into the game with me.

[Actuary 3]

WrongWay,of course, you should not put money in if you feel you have less of an advantage. I'm only talking about the "rigged" theory.There is no motive to rig vs the downsideYou are obviously much younger than I and have little business senseWe'll agree to disagree and that you are crazy.peace.

[WrongWay 0]

There is no motive to rig vs the downsideYou are obviously much younger than I and have little business sense

1) How old are you? I'll be 40 in a couple months.2) The motive is pretty straight forward. a) A newb shows up and gives you some money. Plays like a doof. Looses it quick. Goes away and never gives you more money.b ) A newb shows up and gives you some money. Plays like a doof. There is enough of a rig in the system that allows him to break even, and even make a little short-term... but eventually he loses. Bad run. Gives you more money. Enough rig that he breaks even or even gains short-term... but eventually loses. Gives you more.... repeat.With the huge number of sites, the huge number of countries they operate out of, and the complete lack of oversite in most of those countries, along with the truely obscene profit margins possible.... I find it irrational to not at least suspect that atleast one site has atleast a slight rig in the system.As a computer programmer for the last 18 years, I know it would be quite easy to do.It is possible. To think it impossible is irrational.

[Actuary 3]

it's physically possible to doit's not being done.there's a differnce.given a mix of players at the table, you think someone writes a program to disperse the cards in such a way as to induce the betting and action necessary to end up with the right people making money and the right people losing it? THat would be a lot to track..as players come and go and sit with a mix of other players and play multiple tables. Yeah, that makes sense.man, you're old and crazy.

[Briguy 0]

What possible reason would a site that's making millions per day in rake have to...oh nevermind. Just remember to wear your tinfoil hat while playing, and it all should be fine.Lolz @ logicaments.

[shpaget 0]

Rigging Cash sites would KILL business. I could careless what you think of play sites. It's the impication that real sites MIGHT be rigged that is relevant.

It depends on your business plan and business model.You would think that poor service and snaky salesmen would kill business too, but you still see very shady used car lots....they want the quick sale for the quick profit...long-term customer relationships are not in their model. They will get a continuous stream of new customers...and when their reputation tanks, they'll open up a new store under a new name.I guarantee you that there are online sites that are rigged to some degree.The most common form would be simply increasing the likelihood of big hands on multiple players...this increases action, which increases the rake.This I have definitely seen. How about personally getting seven full houses in an hour of seven card stud...and having four of them lose....where during that entire session a full house occurred at least every two hands. And then to see it again in two subsequent sessions on two subsequent days. To the point where regulars on this particular poker site (who don't necessarily understand poker) see this as normal activity, to the point where they CALL on 7th street with Aces Full. My issue with online poker is simply collusion. It is incredibly easy. Be it two computers in the same room, or friends on the phone or IM. Less likely in MTT...more common than you want to believe in STT and cash games.Is it all rigged? No. Is it all suspicious? No...online poker offers an illusion of frequency of suckouts simply because you play 3 to 4 times as many hands in an hour.But to categorically deny any possibility of rigging is naive.

[Actuary 3]

lol.

[trystero 0]

http://www.playwinningpoker.comsteve badger rulz

[shpaget 0]

lol.

typical non-response.are you suggesting what I saw was a one-off coincidence? or does it happen where you play too, so it must be normal?

[Actuary 3]

typical non-response.are you suggesting what I saw was a one-off coincidence? or does it happen where you play too, so it must be normal?

I'm suggesting someone should have brought a suit against a site by now and proven it.We get lawsuits all the time against us for unscrupulous agents.

[WrongWay 0]

I'm suggesting someone should have brought a suit against a site by now and proven it.We get lawsuits all the time against us for unscrupulous agents.

Is your company located overseas where the governments don't regulate.

[Actuary 3]

Is your company located overseas where the governments don't regulate.

we're not sued by governmentsAre you suggeting there is no recourse against Stars/FullTilt./Party/Bodog?

[shpaget 0]

I'm suggesting someone should have brought a suit against a site by now and proven it.We get lawsuits all the time against us for unscrupulous agents.

It's a valid point...and I'd say it would be very difficult to prove in court. It would also be a little difficult to sue a web site hosted in the Cayman Islands, or Israel, or wherever.Besides...if sites are rigged in the manner I think some of them are (ie. increased action...no favourability to any one player), there's nothing to sue for.You haven't lost anything...they're taking a cut of the pot...they're making it more likely that the pot gets bigger, so their cut is bigger, but two players are voluntarily putting their money in the pot...and one is losing and one is winning with no better/worse statistical frequency than the other....and they're relative cut doesn't change.And the winner is taking a bigger pot than he normally would take....and he will eventually have the 2nd best hand in a different pot.It's a fine line...it's kind of like a slot machine...you're going to lose money anyway over the long run...but how fast the machine operates will determine how fast you lose money.Same thing here...they are going to obtain rake revenue anyway, over the long run - the site is just increasing the speed in which it takes the rake....by pitting two flushes against each other, instead of a flush against a pair.

[Actuary 3]

someone one day will compile data from 50 Billion hands randomly selected.

[WrongWay 0]

Are you suggeting there is no recourse against Stars/FullTilt./Party/Bodog?

Well..... If I file a suit, then I admit I played... Which if I am playing from inside the United States, is illegal.So yeah... my recourse is to admit in binding legal documents that I'm breaking the law.Not to mention, impossible to prove one-way or the other.Which is why the only rational belief is to assume it could be fixed but that you are not sure if it is or isn't.Of course, my live games could be fixed too. For my home games, I don't think the players are good enough to cheat. The casinos are watched very closely by the state.

[meservery 0]

Well..... If I file a suit, then I admit I played... Which if I am playing from inside the United States, is illegal.So yeah... my recourse is to admit in binding legal documents that I'm breaking the law.Not to mention, impossible to prove one-way or the other.

wait. what law exactly says that online poker is illegal?

[Actuary 3]

wait. what law exactly says that online poker is illegal?

yeah..I'll pass the baton.I was getting exhausted and just left that one....go!

[simo_8ball 0]

Can we get over the fucking rigged discussion yet? Jesus Christ, I've been on this forum a year and a half and we're still dealing with this bullshit.Let me channel Smash momentarily..Okay..ready?You sure..?Positive?Okay..here goes...FULL TILT** HAS MORE TO LOSE FROM AN INACCURATE RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR THAN YOU DO. THEY COULD LOSE MILLIONS OFF OF RAKE AND TOURNAMENT FEES, YOU LOSE A COUPLE POTS AT THE 1/2 TABLE. DO YOU SEE WHY THEY WOULD GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO ENSURE A PROPER RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR? THANK YOU, SHUT THE FUCK UP NOW.**You can also substitute the name, "Full Tilt" with Pokerstars, Bodog, Absolute, PartyPoker, Pokerroom, FullContactPoker, VCPoker, Paradise, UltimateBet, WPEX, GaySexPoker or any other online poker room you want. They're not fucking you over. Thanks, have a nice day!

[Actuary 3]

Not to mention, impossible to prove one-way or the other.

no, it could be proven.Lack of randomness is easily provable.**************nice Simo..wher is that posted?

[WrongWay 0]

wait. what law exactly says that online poker is illegal?

Maybe it is just my state... Arizona.The Organized Crime Control Act says it is illegal to engage in gambling that is prohibited by your state. My state says that unless it is in a regulated Indian reservation casino it is illegal to play poker unless it is a "friendly game" which the statute defines as a game where there is no advantage given to any individual involved. It further defines advantage to mean there can't be a house rake or entrance fee.So, online poker where the house takes a rake or a cut of the entrance fee is illegal in my state, making it also a federal crime.

[gobears 0]

We have the example of planet poker whose code did get cracked in the early days of what happens to a site that is "rigged".I feel safe with the big sites like PS, FT, Bodog who would face ruin if it was discovered that their RNG was cracked. If you look at the PS site under the integrity tab at the bottom, they explain in detail how much work they do to ensure a fair environment.It's not 100% proof (what is?) but it's close enough for me

[simo_8ball 0]

nice Simo..wher is that posted?

It's in general poker.http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...p;#entry1511661

[shpaget 0]

no, it could be proven.Lack of randomness is easily provable.

No...it is not.First...finding a jury to even understand the arguments (let alone draw the correct conclusions) would be a craps shoot, which, I guess, may be appropriate - see OJ Simpson jurors who "did not understand the DNA stuff, so I didn't pay attention to it."Second, one statistical expert would show what is likely to happen vs what has happened...and another statisical expert simply has to say the sample isn't big enough....see the "cancer cluster" argument regarding anamolies vs. proof of pattern/cause.Third - the only way to prove a lack of randomness is to prove intent...and without a whistleblower, or an internal document, you won't do it.Now, do I accept that my conclusions about one particular site could be wrong? Absolutely. What am I doing about it? I'm simply not going back. Could it be an anamoly? Yes. Do I think it's a coincidence? No. Can I prove it? No. Do I believe there are reasons to rig? Yes. Do I believe all sites are doing it? No. Do I believe most sites are doing it? No. Do I believe a handful are? Absolutely. Do I believe that when I get rivered it was due to a predetermined plan by the software? No.

[simo_8ball 0]

No...it is not.

Absolutely proveable? No. Proveable to a certain confidence interval? Yes.A lot of statistics is based around the concept of determining whether something can happen by chance.